WFC VIC — IonizationX

#26 · date not recorded

The way i see this vic from now is like a iron powder with maybe some resin small core, will make a very bad coupling and so mainly what i want to say is that it behaves much as an air core. Is too thin the iron in my point of view so it must behave like an air core.

I was making some experiments and if i just hold a magnet half meter far from the transformer it vibrates, at lower frequencies, hum there were also more amps at lower frequencies. Well, I just found interesting that the field was so big so perceptible far from the transformer.

So if the primary was also 29awg wire, must should need to be a reason. The transformer if consuming maybe less half an amp, to drive one tube as stan said that the buggy used 12v 4,4 amps... maybe 400ma for each vic. This is much different approach from what i tried to do. Maybe that was my error. Working at this densities is completely different than using slow mosfets with high amp ratings to switch the primary, witch have to do also with the precision.

Don did you made an estimative of the number of turns? Has anyone tried to desiccate the vic? From those who you talked with?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm very curious about this.

Br
Fabio

Thanks again for all info you are bringing here.

Dynodon

#27 · date not recorded

Alan,I have no info what so ever on the steam resonator.It's just not of any interest to me.

HM,I measure voltage with a oscilloscope,and it's set for 10x probe,hooked through 10, 10 megaohm resistor devider.So on the scope it comes out to 500 volts per division.I've had it up to 4kv at one time at resonance.And yes thats a swinging voltage between positive and negative.I will still working on that issue when I get back on it full time again
Don

Alan

#28 · date not recorded

4KV an no bubbles?
Perhaps with variable width plates or by playing with the dutycycle?

Dynodon

#29 · date not recorded

sebosfato,your mixing up stans designs.The resonant cell only used milliamps.Your talking about the demo cell current at 4.4 amps.Your making the same mistakes as alot of people,mixing up designs and circuits.Anything metalic for a core material will change the inductance, no matter how small the core is.I haven't tried to figure out the number of turns Stan used on the coils.It really doesn't seem to matter.More turns ,more voltage potential.

Alan,my pwm doesn't have adjustable duty cycle.Thats something I will be changing.More testing needs to be done when I get back into it soon.
Don

Donaldwfc

#30 · date not recorded

Don, were you able to get a capacitance reading from your cell? using the scope i think there is a method to do it from the discharge time, i haven't tried mine yet.

Dynodon

#31 · date not recorded

I have a B&K LCR meter,and have measured it with that.But have no idea on how to use a scope.My scope has stopped working,but I might have found the problem.It has been a hit and miss on working ever since I bought it.My cell measures @ 50uF with city tap water.Thats for a 3 inch long,3/4 inch outside tube with .090" gap,and the center tube is a little longer.
Don

Donaldwfc

#32 · date not recorded

my meter is a VC6243

I get 130 uF with rain water, measuring just one tube on my tubular array, 0.0625 gap

i'm just wondering what kind of inductance to look for, to target 10,000 hz resonance

sebosfato

#33 · 1 Dec 2010

I was assuming from what we know about the dune buggy on the papers stan show 4amps 12v. 40kv 1ma .. So i assumed being 11 vic coils, and as he was using 2n3055 transistors he might have used about max 1 amp per vic... Well just guessing.

I was meaning air coil in the sense that the amount of core i see in the picture is not enough for more than 1 amp.. So he might have used the core only to link a bit the coupling. The charging chokes are loosely coupled in my view. While the secondary seems well coupled.

As from the experiment i described with the magnet, seems to me that stan was coupling maybe half from the core and half the air it self. By the position proximity relating to the primary coil.

When i have some more time i will try this approach. However first i will tryout my complement resonance theory.

Br
Fabio

Donaldwfc

#34 · 1 Dec 2010

Don do you have a picture of the other board this connects too?

Dynodon

#35 · 1 Dec 2010

Donald,an LC calculator says that a 1.948uH inductor will resonate at 10khz with your 130uF cap.
Don

Dynodon

#36 · 1 Dec 2010

The coil pack plugs into the back of the control panel.Pic added,thats the only one I have.
Don

attachment_6252 meyers pics (165).JPG

Donaldwfc

#37 · 1 Dec 2010

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/323vicinductance.png)

yea I was thinking, ran that calculation too, and then decided to measure my vic again, that i made based on this design, the coils are about 2000 turns of 30 gage on a flyback core and the inductance comes out in the perfect range

this coil, i haven't had luck pulsing it properly, maybe i will rewind the primary with 30 gage too, and then try when i get my pulsing circuit sorted out...

still thinking of making a new vic with the electrical steel, even closer to stans, the coils on this vic are not identical, and i could have taken much more care in winding them so they would be the same, the inductance on the other coils is a bit lower

Donaldwfc

#38 · 1 Dec 2010

thanks for that pic, i have seen it before when you posted it in a different topic, i was hoping that you might have one if the inside of it to help complete the picture a bit more, thanks though

Donaldwfc

#39 · 1 Dec 2010

whoa wait a minute, that 1.9 uH, not 1.9 H, i am way off, what's going on here? *thinking brb*

... it's 97 mH without the core, any ideas?

1.95 H and 130 uF will resonate at 10 Hz, could 10 Hz be the gate frequency, while 10,000 Hz is the pulse frequency? in the patent he says 0.5 Hz gate frequency for that vic which sounds like an extremely low gate freq

say my vic has 6 H (2 from each choke and the secondary) then the inductive reactance at 10,000 Hz is

XL = 2piFL
= 2 x 3.141592653 x 10 kHz x 6 H
= 4E+05 ohms (to 1 significant digit)
= 376,991 ohms

thats pretty huge, to restrict amps

http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml
measured the cell without water, so just air, and it is 25 picoF
also, calculated with air, it is 25 picoF

calculated with dielectric constant of 80 gives 2100 picoF or 2 nF

to get a calculated 130 uF, it requires a dielectric constant of 5 million

so clearly there is a difference here some how

2 nF and 10kHz gives 126 mH for res

does anyone else have some measurements and calculations to compare?

assuming 2nF is in the right ballpark, and 2000 turns of 30 gage is in the right ballpark, and i get 97 mH without a core, and Stans core was tiny, then maybe my core provides too much increase in inductance, and with a smaller core i might be closer to the 126 mH value compared to 97 mH with air-core

so maybe, the numbers work, it's just knowing which numbers to work with

sebosfato

#40 · 1 Dec 2010

You have nice coils Donald,

You should try them with iron powder core, you can take some glue or a resin and mix with iron powder. Than you make the core the way you want.

I would make a core just like stan had, C cause is easier, i'm using a flyback core, and EE cores on my experiments, with interchangeable bobbins.

I'm realizing that resistance on the primary wire is something necessary for a well design transformer. Actually maybe is the most important thing, cause you can maybe kind of create relativistic effects.

Once i saw a patent witch claimed a device to create a wormhole... I think now i see what he was pointing, electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light or near, so if you manage to create a cycle for the waves, kind of make it ring in circles, as the waves travel in the speed of light when they finish the turn they will meet the waves in the past, cause it is moving at speed close to the speed of the light so is traveling into the time kind for the same time we think we are looking to the electromagnetic wave, "she" is also looking to us however, for she the time is passing really slower in reference to our time. Like very very ultra low frequency. So low that is like permanent in nature, just like the magnets, the earth. You might have heard about the polarity of the earth will reverse on 2012 and that is true the north will become south and south will become north not yet, actually the north will become real north as it was already south and the south, well south.

I think that if we could calculate the difference in time relative to the electromagnetic wave, and for our third dimension time, would be possible to create a resonance coupling this oscillation of the time due to the electromagnetic interaction. All than needed will be A kind of circle that traps and directs the electromagnetic waves. Waveguide. Than is all about circulate waves there, and harvest energy from the time space electromagnetic door.

CrazyEwok

#41 · 1 Dec 2010

just a thought, if you build an inductor to match your resonant frequency of 10KHz, once production starts and the capacitance of your cell drops (due to more gas and less air in between plates) you will need to raise your frequency to match the lowered capacitance? would it not be a better idea to choose say 5Khz (or less) as your starting frequency?

Steve

#42 · 1 Dec 2010

Quote from: Donaldwfc on December 01, 2010, 02:42:12 am

whoa wait a minute, that 1.9 uH, not 1.9 H, i am way off, what's going on here? *thinking brb*

... it's 97 mH without the core, any ideas?

1.95 H and 130 uF will resonate at 10 Hz, could 10 Hz be the gate frequency, while 10,000 Hz is the pulse frequency? in the patent he says 0.5 Hz gate frequency for that vic which sounds like an extremely low gate freq

say my vic has 6 H (2 from each choke and the secondary) then the inductive reactance at 10,000 Hz is

XL = 2piFL
= 2 x 3.141592653 x 10 kHz x 6 H
= 4E+05 ohms (to 1 significant digit)
= 376,991 ohms

thats pretty huge, to restrict amps

http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml
measured the cell without water, so just air, and it is 25 picoF
also, calculated with air, it is 25 picoF

calculated with dielectric constant of 80 gives 2100 picoF or 2 nF

to get a calculated 130 uF, it requires a dielectric constant of 5 million

so clearly there is a difference here some how

2 nF and 10kHz gives 126 mH for res

does anyone else have some measurements and calculations to compare?

assuming 2nF is in the right ballpark, and 2000 turns of 30 gage is in the right ballpark, and i get 97 mH without a core, and Stans core was tiny, then maybe my core provides too much increase in inductance, and with a smaller core i might be closer to the 126 mH value compared to 97 mH with air-core

so maybe, the numbers work, it's just knowing which numbers to work with

My 2 cents..
Use different meters and you will notice different readings.
I also had readings like uF, but during my tests i concluded that that could not be the truth.
Basically, i use for easy calculation a 1 till 10nF for one single Meyer tube.

Steve

TonyWoodside

#43 · 2 Dec 2010

Hey Don, nice to see ya back...Thanks for the new pic of the 5 coil VIC. Ive been looking over it and I see that Stan used either a MUR1550 or MUR1560 diode between the Sec. and L1...also looks like the green resistor is a 2w-5w 20 ohm or 120 ohm resistor maybe used to limit the current in the primary...the two 220 ohm resistors which Im about 90% sure where connected on to the pickup coil leads, am I right about this Don? Also another thing about this coil, in one of Stan's international patents he says this type coils has a Pri:Sec ratio of 1:30, with the primary being 200 turns and Secondary being 1:10, L1/L2 being 1:10 each...with that being said, that would make the secondary 2,000 turns and L1/L2 also 2,000 turns each...with a total for Sec+L1+L2 = 6,000 turns total (1:30). This should give u a Positive high voltage on the output of the L1 coil and a Negative high voltage on the output of the L2 coil....btw Don me & Spencer have about got the main circuit values all worked out, just need to figure out a couple more resistor and capacitor values, but we have the IC's all down :-)

-Tony Woodside-

http://www.GlobalKast.com

Iontruster

#44 · 2 Dec 2010

That's right Tony, also, the core is of ferromagnetic material and will act as a frequency doubler, so that should help in the 10kHz question using 5kHz as a base FR.

This paper appears in: PGMTT National Symposium Digest
Issue Date: May 1961
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/PGMTT.1961.1122355
Date of Current Version:                                                                 06 januari 2003

"In experiments on frequency doubling using ferrite slabs in a rectangular wave guide, planar ferrites consistently had much greater conversion efficiency than isotropic ferrites. The principle results are shown in Fig. 1. The geometry used is also shown in Fig. 1. The primary frequency was in the range of 8.5 to 9.1 kilomegacycles. The reference power level (0 db) was one watt peak power. The duty cycle was 10-4. The material properties are given in the appendix."

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1122355

siwa

#45 · date not recorded

Dynodon , You said in your post that your coil set when in resonance only pulls 20 milliamps.And the resonance is @ 10khz. My question is: 20 milliamps pulls primary coil or pulls water capacitor? And other question do you check inductance of your primary , secondary and choke coils and can give it?
thank
siwa

Alan

#46 · date not recorded

Quote from: CrazyEwok on December 01, 2010, 05:54:04 am

just a thought, if you build an inductor to match your resonant frequency of 10KHz, once production starts and the capacitance of your cell drops (due to more gas and less air in between plates) you will need to raise your frequency to match the lowered capacitance? would it not be a better idea to choose say 5Khz (or less) as your starting frequency?

Perhaps siwa is right and the 20ma or most if not all the power is used / fully converted to magnetic fields by the coils, so there is no energy available to flow to the WFC so perhaps a drop in capacitance doesn't matter.
What happens when the field collapses? Does the stored energy in the coils do flow to the WFC now?

Dynodon

#47 · date not recorded

Tony,the diode was the MUR type that Stan gives the number to in his tech brief.Don't remember which one off hand.The resistors were across the feedback coil only.Not all the coil packs had that many resistors.There's no way you could get 2000 turns of 29 gauge wire on the chokes or secondary.I don't know trhe ratios,but I doubt that he used a 30:1 ratio.

My primary coil is pulling 20ma.My whole pulsing circuit pulls 160ma before pulsing coils.Then it goes to 180 at resonance.While tuning it's over 200ma.I'll take a look at my notes later on my coil specs.
Don

siwa

#48 · date not recorded

Don thanks for your ansver. I be waiting for coils spec.

thanks
siwa

Dynodon

#49 · date not recorded

OK I mesured my coils tonight.All of my wire is 30 gauge .010" diameter.
Primary inductance= 200mH , 200 turns
Secondary inductance= 3H , 1000 turns
Chokes inductance= 6.5H , 2000 turns
Ferroxcube U core,the largest one they make
again my LC resonance is @10khz at @ 1kv at the cell

Don

Bubz

#50 · 3 Dec 2010

Hi Dynodon. What cell did you measure with? Is this with or without water? Thank you for your time and info! Oh, yeah! and why did you choose to use the same size wire for both primary and secondary/chokes?