WFC VIC — IonizationX

#176 · date not recorded

It really does make sense now.
Especially interesting are Stans highlightings and notes on the Graneau experiments. There it was noted, that the current density was the all important factor if a bang shall occur. Not the voltage and not the overall current. Only the current density. But how can you get a high current density on the WFC, without having to apply a high voltage at the same time, which will simply arc over and bang (like in the Graneau experiments). As I now measured, it is obvious. You actually really are able to have exactly this situation. No voltage on the coils, but all the current flowing through the WFC. Surely, if the current is high and the WFC capacitance discharged, I would certainly guess that you would then see the voltage drop according to the resistance.
I will make a scope shot, to show this effect!

And here it is (fresh from my "Amp Inhibiting Circuit" on my WFC with tap water):
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/690/coilvoltagevswfccurrent.gif)
The yellow one is the voltage of a coil, the blue is the current through the WFC. I had to add quite a resistance in the circuit to measure it (shunt), this distorted a bit the current waveform. But the effect is still clearly visible. When the coil voltage is highest (yellow), the current through the WFC is zero (blue). When the coil voltage is zero (yellow), the current through the WFC is at it's max (blue)

Alan

#177 · date not recorded

Looking forward to scopeshots.
So the current induced in the chokes do counter the current from the secondary?

Kali, how did you obtain your SS wire? Can you miss some?

Kali_ma_Amar

#178 · date not recorded

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So the current induced in the chokes do counter the current from the secondary?

This only looks like that on the first sight. But you have to remember the parasitic capacities. Therefore the current of the chokes can flow, no matter what the secondary does. The secondary can only help the resonant circuit, namely if its voltage is higher than the resonant voltage. Therefore it is so important, that the secondary will output a + on the diode side, when the resonant circuit will also have a + there. Then the secondary can charge the cap even more. If you would do it the other way round, you couldn't do that and would even discharge the resonant circuit. Therefore in this arrangement both of their flow will add (into the parasitic capacity) and not subtract. And due to the subtraction of voltages (not current), there won't be a big "resistive" current flow through the WFC, which would only waste power and then counteract the current flow as you indicated. Hmm, doesn't make really sense, does it? Well, let's try it later. I go back experimenting...

Quote

Kali, how did you obtain your SS wire? Can you miss some?

Actually I got my wire, quite some time ago, from a guy from Canada, back in the overunity forum. He called himself Dankie. Why do you need some? It's actually pretty expensive. I paid several hundred dollars...
For the normal WFC circuit it is obviously not needed...

Edit:
So back from some more testing, with a bit more input voltage. This time I used a separate core with a step up of 1:40 from 12V, which means about 500 volts on the coils.
Now I realized something, that I already saw before at 10volts, but was not certain what it was. Now, I realized what it was:
During the process the resonant frequency really changes all the time. Sometimes it does make some real jumps. At first I just observed, that the current sometimes just makes jumps. I had no idea why. This current jumping was even more extreme with the 500volts at the coils. But then I realized why the current jumps up and down: The resonant frequency changes and therefore the current goes up. Even at 500volts at the coils I can get to 0.xmA readings if the frequency is hit, but this is quite difficult doing manually, what I am still doing, as I still have this crude 8xA setup and don't use yet my special controller.

I also discovered another thing:
The gating does decrease the needed amperage extremely, and far beyond any logic. Just introducing some off gating reduced the needed current much more, than would be logical just by pure mathematics. E.g. if I have 6on and 2 off gating, it needs about 50times less current than the case, when I have no gating?!?
Does your circuit also behave like that Don?

sebosfato

#179 · 2 Mar 2011

Kalli,

Maybe the jumps you mean happens cause of saturation of the core, therefore reducing the inductance and suddenly changing the resonant frequency.. could be other things too..

Kali_ma_Amar

#180 · 2 Mar 2011

@Sebosfato:
Yes, that would make really sense, thank you for this argument. It would also explain the gating current differences. But the strange thing is, in a minor version this also happened, when I had 10 volts on the core, where it surely didn't saturate the core.
And I could see clearly with the 500volts on it, that I can get down to almost no current, but then immediately the current again starts to drift slowly away. But if I then adjust the frequency I again get almost no current, and then again the current drifts away. IMHO this observation wouldn't really match the behaviour due to a core saturation.

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Kali, yes the red dots you applied are the correct way.Thats just how all my testing of coils ended up,that gave me the highest output of voltage.I tried arranging the coils in every configuration possible,but that arrangement always gave the highest voltage output.

Stan showed several different drawings with different coil arrangements,so one of them was bound to be right.

Actually, now I'm a bit puzzled. Why did you test different configurations to look for which yields the highest voltage, if you saw how the real 5-coil-VIC was wired? As I understood, you looked on the real 5-coil-VIC, how exactly it was wired to everything. Or were these tests, before you saw the real VIC?

For as I already mentioned, there do exist 2 circuits which can yield high voltages: One with different polarities to the cell (the one from the patent pic posted before), and one with the same polarities to the cell. And before you mentioned that the real VIC was wired with different polarities, I would have been 90% sure, that it is wired with the same polarities to the cell. But in the setup with the same polarities to the cell it is much more difficult to get the resonant voltage rise, without needing a lot of current in the beginning.
IMHO 4 things would speak strongly for the second variant:
1.) In all available drawings where Stan actually showed the bifilars (only 3), they were wired with the same polarity to the cell.
2.) It would IMHO only make sense, if he really wound the 6-1 VIC bifilar, that then they had the same polarity to the cell. Otherwise the high voltage would have just ripped their isolation.
3.) The resistive wire for the choke coils IMHO only makes sense in this version. And this only, if the WFC itself has a high resistance (is small, like the injectors)
4.) You would actually see a pulse doubling over the cell.

But there surely also do speak things against this variant...(e.g. in this variant it would be beneficial if the circuit is grounded)

Just for better understanding: This is the wiring version which would also make sense:
(http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/3347/fullmeyerbriefsamepolar.gif)
But although both chokes are called here resonant charging chokes, actually only the second (62) would be resonating, not the top one, as they would have different resonant frequencies, due to different capacities seen. And one would be only interested in a resonance of the second choke, as this would then stop the current from flowing from the secondary through the cell.

sebosfato

#181 · 2 Mar 2011

What would also makes sense is if the 56 or tx4 choke is made of resistive wire or at least a wire with smaller gauge so you can induce a higher voltage in it cause of the resonance of the tuned coil.

Maybe the jumps could be than related to what meyer said about inconsistencies of the water and called i think out of resonant conditions witch the pll should take over and correct the frequency immediately. Maybe is one of the reasons for the gating...

I think the 62 is a tuned "resonant" choke and 56 a charging choke.

Sharky

#182 · 2 Mar 2011

Is your water temperature stable when you're having spikes? It has an impact on the dielectric properties of water and would change your resonant frequency, ... as would the type of water as Sebosfato indicated ...

Kali_ma_Amar

#183 · date not recorded

It's just a small bowl with 2 SS plates. I don't think there will be any such temperature changes.

@Sebosfato:
I already thought the same, that then, it could make sense, that only one coil is resistive. But I would have gone for the other one. For then, the DC charge from the secondary would fully drop across the lower choke, which would charge the resonant capacity. On the other hand, having a big resistance in a resonating circuit is not what you wanna have...
I made a few tests, back now, with the same polarity to the cell.
In this setup the voltage can already get higher than the input voltage (which is not the case, for the other configuration, which is limited by the input voltage). Here I get about +-50volt swings with an input of 10volts.
The problem with this setup is the strong DC current while the input voltage is coming in.
It is logical, that if you put a resistance in between the diode and the first choke, all the voltage will drop across it. Therefore there's almost no more voltage resonating on the coils. It just obviously lowers your current. Also if you have a high resistance in the upper part, then the circuit is hindered in feeding additionally your resonating capacity, therefore you won't get high resonating voltages anymore.
But it's interesting, that if you put a resistance in between your neg input and the second coil, it will obviously again drop your DC current but it will not influence much your resonating voltage. If you go to the extreme, then you simply disconnect the second choke coil here (resistance infinity) and it will still resonate like a charm, but as no DC current can't flow anymore it needs almost no more current. Why is this possible?
The coil itself has a capacity to the environment, as the WFC has. Therefore the charge is always going from the WFC to the coil and vice versa. Without having the coil connected on the other side.
I would call this a top fed Tesla-coil

, in relation to the usually known bottom fed Tesla-coil. For in this example you feed the top, when the input voltage is coming in.

sebosfato

#184 · date not recorded

Then you get something different from resonance, or the only possibility is if it was very very high frequency to be able to explore this kind of capacitances. I'm pretty sure it wont work if you don't use the resonance.

If the resonating coil is resistive you will only waste a lot of power. You know that. But the other as you only want voltage field benefits to have resistive wire..

I have good news i got my circuit now working properly now, the gate circuit is fine after some re-solderings didn't changed anything... It has from 1% to 100% duty cycle adjust and vary in a range of frequency witch i don't know what is cause i don't have a frequency meter.

Now the pulses are exactly what stan showed in the patent. The circuit in the patent connecting the nor gate to the inhibit of the pll makes that you can use the duty cycle to select the number of pulses, and the way it is provided you will never get a half pulse or just 1% of the pulse that could damage the components and specially the resonance. So Stan was really a genius. = )

Now i'm just trying to figure out why my driver is not being able to work at high frequencies, time ago use to work at 200khz, i'm not sure what is happening. maybe is partially broken...

For solving that maybe i'm going to try the ir4427 that i have here...

I did a first test here and from the battery i could get 33vac in the tx5 coil, i didn't added the series coil yet.. .

I need to buy some fuses to use my variac again..

Dynodon

#185 · date not recorded

Kali,
I tested the different coil lay outs before and after I saw the Stans coils.I'm always trying different ways with my set up trying to find the best outcome.Sometimes I don't have my notes handy when hooking up the coils,so I just play around.Gut when I do get them to put out the highest voltage,it always comes out to Stans arrangement.But if I change something in the circuit,like bifiller choke coils verses single coils,it may need a different setup.Sometimes I'll try two diodes,or no step up transformer coils,and other things.

So I don't always test with that one coil arrangement.

In my testing of resonance,I found that resonance was only happening with the positive choke and the cell.If I disconnect the negative choke ,resonance frequency wouldn't change.If I added a capacitor to the top choke,the resonance frequency would change,but if I added it to the negative choke it wouldn't change the frequency for resonance.If I added a capacitor to the cell, resonance frequency would change.

So from my test,resonance is between the positive choke and the cell.
Don

Kali_ma_Amar

#186 · date not recorded

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Then you get something different from resonance, or the only possibility is if it was very very high frequency to be able to explore this kind of capacitances. I'm pretty sure it wont work if you don't use the resonance.

I'm not quite sure, what you wanna say here. Sure it's a resonance condition. You can easily see it by varying the frequency. But it's just a capacitively fed resonance, if you just connect one end.
But to be honest. If you think about it. The 2 circuits are not that far apart from each other in relation to what happens on the WFC. Both of them let resonate some AC current through the WFC, and both of them apply some DC remainings. Although the "same polarity circuit" would surely push more DC current through it, if not limited by a resistance.
Except. If the "same polarity circuit" would actually work, like I thought it would at first sight. Namely, that really both chokes resonate. That it is actually more a single resonating bottom fed coil, but just wired with 2 wires. The endresult would be that it should act like a Dr Stiffler circuit. Namely positive current always flows mainly in from one electrode and then gets discharged through the other electrode. But I'm not sure if this is really the case. For if you take directly a Stiffler circuit at a few Kilovolts you don't see anything unusual happen.
Actually I quite neglected my work lately. So work has piled. So I will have to stop experimenting for a few days...

@Don:
I'm personally still do not understand why you still test other variations of the circuit, if you actually saw, how Stans circuit was exactly wired. Then I personally would only do tests on exactly this circuit, as long as it needs, 'til I get a result...But maybe that's just me??? I don't know.

sebosfato

#187 · date not recorded

Well i see the possibility for the chokes to resonate too, but i'm not sure by witch mechanism if in that manner.. The problem i see is that wont close the circuit being the diode there...

Dynodon

#188 · date not recorded

Kali,I test other ideas just for the sake of research.I've tested Stans coil arrangement and it never works the way he claims.It doesn't double the frequency after the blocking diode.and it doesn't produce unipolar pulse either.It creates alot of a/c like voltage across the water,but no gas.It will light a flouresant bulb,but thats it.

When reading voltage with a scope,it shows up like a/c.Meaning it swings above and below 0 referance line,and there is no double unipolar pulses.Just a sine wave at resonance.Stan states that pulses never drop below 0 ground.Anytime I get all positive pulses,there is always a pause between them,and no double pulses.The frequency at the cell is the same as the pulsed frequency,no doubling.

So I keep trying different test to get those double puses to appear.I feel that those double pulses are the key.
Don

sebosfato

#189 · date not recorded

Don the doubling frequency will happen only if tx5 coil is resonating with the container. I'm quite sure of that. I'm working on that. mind the electrical insulated hosing. Why for?

why in the vic of the patent there is a ground connection there?

Newguy

#190 · date not recorded

In everything Ive read the chokes act as like a double secondary.... one thing i want to test is a core made like a flyback transformer where there is a very thin piece of mylar,mica or something between the core halfs mayb providing the unipolar coupling idk but in any case how ever it needs to built so that the secondary not only provides rectified half waves , it also acts as a primary for the chokes.the chokes then not only further restricts the amps but providing some for a pulse durring the secondary off but the chokes are puting out a resonate waveform instead of simple sinewave.... just some thawts $:-\$
I think mayb its this resonate waveform responsible for polarizing the atoms, aka e.p.p.( atomic polarizability ).
Im not an electronics guy.. im a rock driller so i know very little in practicle expierience in transformers but do form oppinions about what i read.... that being said what offsets the secondarys possitive and negatiive ends output by 90 degrees?

Bubz

#191 · date not recorded

Very interesting! I read where Don says he hasn't seen the frequency doubling. I have measured doubling with alternator coils and such, but, to get a better understanding I put together a super simple test using a signal gen, diode, and an air cored 100 wind coil. Measurements direct from the signal gen shows the selected frequency such as 60Hz, although, any measurements after the coil are all over the place. What am I seeing here? The meter rapidly fluctuates into the Khz range well beyond doubling from 60Hz.

Dynodon

#192 · date not recorded

Bubz,you need to hook a scope to your test to be able to tune into the resonance of your choke.Your seeing alot of noise in your set up.Your choke only, will still resonate,but at what frequency.Once you tune into resonance,you'll see that it's at the same frequency as your input signal.That will only happen at resonance.
Don

Kali_ma_Amar

#193 · 3 Mar 2011

Don, thanks for this insight. As I see it, if you wire it, like in that patent pic, then you will mainly have ac on the cell (with a slight DC, due to the charging current)
IMHO the only configuration which can show a double pulse on the cell is the one with both chokes with same polarities to the cell, and only if the cell is made in a tubular configuration.

@sebosfato:
About the showed earth connection in the WFC-pic.
I just thought about the same this morning. And as I remembered and if I understood correctly what Don said, the water was circulated all the time through the cell and back to the tank. But this makes a huge difference in relation to the actual electric circuit. Why? The neg electrode is on the inside and the outer electrode is isolated. The inner electrode has direct contact to the water. Which means, as water itself is a conductor, all the water in the car tank will be part of this electrode potential "capacity". And if this water is not everywhere isolated from the buggy, even the buggy itself will get this potential. This would actually be almost equal to saying, that the neg electrode is connected to "earth". As there's anyway no "earth" on a car. But "earth" just means a big capacity. And the capacity of all the water will surely be quite big in relation to all other capacities in the circuit (even if the water would be completely isolated from the car). So in this manner, this showed (symbolic) "earth" on the inner electrode could make sense. It would surely quite strongly change the picture of how the VIC-circuit is working. For to really get, how this thing works, 2 points need to be satisfied:
1.) You need to know how it was wired.
2.) You need to know, how the "relevant" equivalence circuit is looking like.
And especially the 2nd part is IMHO the harder part, as the capacities involved are all that small, that any parasitic capacity could be relevant.

sebosfato

#194 · 3 Mar 2011

I believe that the water was completely insulated, so it could maintain the charge (so as the pump necessarily). The fact that he makes it circulate is because of the reason he gave us, when a charged particle cross an electric field the result is electromagnetic energy. So he could avoid lasers for example... The earth or ground that i'm talking about is called by meyer isolated ground... thats why...

But yet from this doesn't mean that the electrical insulated ground is in contact with the water... with thus i believe is not. So for me this forms the resonant ability cavity.

I'm not sure if the water was recirculated back in the tank but could be, as could also be there recirculating and water being added according to the level in the cavity... not sure about that...

So what i'm saying is that no electrode inside the water is electrically connected direct to the ground only thru the coil or dielectric (forming the capacitance) therefore forming the resonant tank.

Yes water will hold up a very big charge (big capacity), if it sits in an insulated housing...

sebosfato

#195 · 3 Mar 2011

Bubs the doubling means that you will input pulse 50% duty and you will have that same frequency bur flipping polarity, therefore if you was going to full wave rectify you would get a double frequency, but happens that the vic does not need a full wave bridge cause of the phase of the resonance in relation to the pulse, so only at the resonant frequency you will see the frequency doubling..

Kali_ma_Amar

#196 · 4 Mar 2011

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So what i'm saying is that no electrode inside the water is electrically connected direct to the ground only thru the coil or dielectric (forming the capacitance) therefore forming the resonant tank.

What I meant was: There's anyway no "ground" connection on a car. The "ground" on your car, is just a body with a big capacity. And as all the water will have an electric connection to the inner tube, this means, that there's quite a big capacity (in relation to the capacities in the VIC) directly at the neg electrode. So from a pure electrical schematic viewpoint you would describe this equal as having a "ground" connection directly at the inner tube. Basically you would say, that there's a big capacity (in relation to the VIC capacities) connected to the inner tube.
Sure the capacity overall is very small (as usual with single terminal capacities, e.g. as huge as the earth is, it has only about 710 uF), but compared to the VIC capacities it is big. Which means nothing else, than the circuit is surely not able to raise or lower the voltage (of this capacity in relation to the environment) at this point in the circuit by much. As it would have to charge any other smaller single terminal capacity in the VIC to a much higher voltage to be able to do that.

BTW: Can anyone of you read the words where the first choke is (top left), in this handwritten note from Stan?
(http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/ORIGSKETCH2.jpg)

Kali_ma_Amar

#197 · 5 Mar 2011

As I again thought about the 5-VIC-coil layout I discovered an IMHO interesting point.
From the VIC-size and AWG-size, as told by Don, my guesses would be about the following Nr turns of the coils (Primary 100 or 200, Pickup 400, Secondary and both chokes 2'000). Sure the numbers are only guesses, but I think they should be in the right dimension region. What is really interesting is the fact, that the secondary has the same size as each of the choke coils.
If we now look at the wiring, that Don described (same as patent pic, shown before), one thing is very interesting to see: The choke coil voltage (of both coils in series) is certainly 2times as big as that of the secondary. This means, when the primary is energized, no current can flow through the diode. Only when the primary is off, and the chokes are swinging in reverse, a current would flow through the diode. This is quite strange.

Were the pickup windings also wound in 2 coils, as in the patent circuit? Is it just me, or are 400turns for the pickup not abit much...
Did the wire of the primary coil get out of the coil at two different ends, or at the same end of the coil. IMHO this would determine, if it had 100turns or 200turns (so if the ratio primary to secondary/chokes was rather 1:10 or 1:20).
Where were the resistors connected? I think you once mentioned, the 2 smaller ones (220Ohms, which look like connected in parallel) were connected to the pickup, and the big green one was connected to the primary. Is this correct? From the picture, it could also be, that all three were in parallel.

Newguy

#198 · 5 Mar 2011

ive read wer don said the core is two pieces butted against each other...... just to ask a question lol are the chokes on seperate halves and or wich side is the secondary on compared with the chokes?

Kali_ma_Amar

#199 · 5 Mar 2011

Just look at the first pic in this thread, where the 5-coil-VIC is shown. The core was 2 U-core halves put together (in the pic, one U is at the top, seen as a n, and the other at the bottom, seen as a u). The red ones on the right side of the picture are the chokes, the blue one on the left the secondary.
But it's obvious that strictly speaking, all three coils are secondaries. The only difference is, that some coils can additionally resonate, and others not. And what exactly resonates with what capacities, is one big part of the mystery...

Newguy

#200 · 5 Mar 2011

thank you

was it the dublin institute that said the core in theory wld have a q factory of infinity? i jus like to think of the cokes as double secondarries lol It appears to me the secondary provides the initial voltage field to the plates for alignment purposes of the molecules.... the choke/s appear to apply an atomic polarization of the atoms ( wich would require an oscillating waveform ... ).. maybe nuclear polarization

from there i havent formed further oppinions yet.Im jus glad to be here lol.