WFC VIC
Started by unknown · · 434 posts · last reply 2 May 2014
-
#126 ·
@Tony:
As I see it the main differences between Puharich's circuit and Stan's is the diode, and the voltage (Puharich used very low voltages). Puharich does not use a diode for rectification. This is the very strange thing about Puharich's circuit, namely that he states, that the WFC starts to act like a diode if he connects it to his circuit and rectifies the applied AC-Waveform. The only idea I could have, why this rectification could take place would be the inhomogeneous E-Field in the WFC due to the tubular arrangement.
It would be interesting, if anyone was ever able to replicate this rectification by the WFC. For one thing could be interesting: If you somehow manage, that the WFC starts to act like a diode, then you could suddenly apply a very high voltage to the WFC in the blocking direction of the WFC "diode". In this way the water would suddenly see a very high E-field, but the current couldn't flow.
But my personal guess is, that this rectification only happens at very low voltages, as Puharich used. If the inhomogeneous E-Field is responsible for it, it could be, that the E-Field differences just make the final step if the anode-reaction-potential is reached or not. Which means, the anode reaction could take place at the inner tube wall, as there the E-Field is stronger, but not take place at the outside tubewall, as there the E-Field is smaller. If this is the way Puharich's rectification took place, it wouldn't be possible to use this principle to apply a short HV-burst.
BTW: At these low voltages (below the reaction potential) the WFC actually really acts like an almost perfect capacitor with a very high resistance. This is actually the basic principle how the low-voltage Super-Caps do work. Therefore it was probably very easy for Puharich to get a resonant circuit, as the WFC really just acted like a capacitor, and if the voltage just reached the critical reaction-potential it started to also act like a diode in one direction.
@Andy:
Actually I don't think the last hypothesis is really reasonable. But it was early in the morning
...
Sorry again, to get that much Offtopic in this thread. I will again do the experiments with the "8xA circuit", but this time, with the AC waveform on resonance and not the Ton/Toff on resonance. But I will then start a new thread not to get anymore offtopic in here. Sorry! -
#127 · date not recorded
Kali'
The large humps are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac voltage from the vari-ac.Then the square wave pulses are the ones riding on top.The 120hz is fixed and is not adjustable.I'm not sure that you understand that part,based on your responces.
Only the pulses riding on top are adjustable.The large unipolar pulses never change.At some points when tuning this set up,you will get harmonics of the two signals where they will match.
ie: 120hz,240hz,480hz,960hz.....
Don -
#128 · date not recorded
I think that puharich was not over unity, yes he used his am amplitude modulated signal, and his device was the rectifier. but stan really got into the resonance in my view. -
#129 · date not recorded
@Tony:
As I see it the main differences between Puharich's circuit and Stan's is the diode, and the voltage (Puharich used very low voltages). Puharich does not use a diode for rectification. This is the very strange thing about Puharich's circuit, namely that he states, that the WFC starts to act like a diode if he connects it to his circuit and rectifies the applied AC-Waveform. The only idea I could have, why this rectification could take place would be the inhomogeneous E-Field in the WFC due to the tubular arrangement.
It would be interesting, if anyone was ever able to replicate this rectification by the WFC. For one thing could be interesting: If you somehow manage, that the WFC starts to act like a diode, then you could suddenly apply a very high voltage to the WFC in the blocking direction of the WFC "diode". In this way the water would suddenly see a very high E-field, but the current couldn't flow.
But my personal guess is, that this rectification only happens at very low voltages, as Puharich used. If the inhomogeneous E-Field is responsible for it, it could be, that the E-Field differences just make the final step if the anode-reaction-potential is reached or not. Which means, the anode reaction could take place at the inner tube wall, as there the E-Field is stronger, but not take place at the outside tubewall, as there the E-Field is smaller. If this is the way Puharich's rectification took place, it wouldn't be possible to use this principle to apply a short HV-burst.
BTW: At these low voltages (below the reaction potential) the WFC actually really acts like an almost perfect capacitor with a very high resistance. This is actually the basic principle how the low-voltage Super-Caps do work. Therefore it was probably very easy for Puharich to get a resonant circuit, as the WFC really just acted like a capacitor, and if the voltage just reached the critical reaction-potential it started to also act like a diode in one direction.
@Andy:
Actually I don't think the last hypothesis is really reasonable. But it was early in the morning ...
Sorry again, to get that much Offtopic in this thread. I will again do the experiments with the "8xA circuit", but this time, with the AC waveform on resonance and not the Ton/Toff on resonance. But I will then start a new thread not to get anymore offtopic in here. Sorry!
Puharich did not use a diode because he used ground.
One side of the secondairy coil is grounded, so never ever ac on his device.
Go have a look at his patent.
Steve -
#130 · date not recorded
Speaking of WFC's acting like diodes, I have observed several of my cells taking on diode characteristics. Such as if I take my multimeter and set it to the "tone" test setting, it will only give a tone and conduct in one direction. I've also tested my cell with a diode tester and it acted just like a diode acts when being tested. Very strange stuff. I would like to see the avalanche effect occur at very low current ;-) -
#131 ·
QuoteOne side of the secondairy coil is grounded, so never ever ac on his device.
Well, why should AC not be possible, if you ground one side??? Doesn't make sense to me? Would be nice, if you could explain a little farther what you mean. Take a any transformer and ground one wire. You will still have AC. The only difference would be, that now the overall potential is not floating anymore, but has a fixed reference potential.
I think Puharich even states himself somewhere, that the cell has rectifying capabilities. E.g. look at his Blood Patent. The circuit is very similar. And there he shows the equivalence circuit of the media, which is exactly as I would expect it to be: Namely a diode with a resistance in series parallel to a capacitor with a resistance. My guess would just be, that the behaviour is voltage dependent. E.g. for low voltages it is obviously a capacitor. For high voltages it is a resistor and in between probably acts like a diode, if the E-field is inhomogeneous. this is at least my current hypothesis.
@Don:
Thanks for the comment. As I looked again at the pic, I realized my mistake immediately. Let's blame this due to the fact, that it was very early in the morning, when I looked at it...
The big ones definitely look like the rectified AC. But honestly, this pic arises more questions than it answers.
One thing is obvious. The frequency of the coils is definitely quite higher than the 120Hz of the rectified AC. This at least answers one question for me, for I was quite astonished how he could get such a low resonance frequency with just such a small coil, with not that much windings.
Did you make that PIC? It would be interesting if it was made really with just such a low voltage, or if a 10xprobe has been used.
All in all, this now really started my interest in this "8xA circuit". I will definitely now do some more experiments on it.
@Tony:
Hmm looks like I will have to do some experiments to the diode behaviour of the WFC. But one has to be very cautious in measuring a static condition with a multimeter, for a WFC acts also like a battery. And this can very much alter the measurement if you use low static voltages from a Multimeter. I think only a dynamic measurement could really definitely give the answer under what conditions a WFC starts to behave like a diode. -
#132 ·
Well, it seemed to me not ac anymore when you ground one side.
In my simulations, i see a change on the secondairy side.
I use a resistor and cap as cell in parallel.
Steve -
#133 · date not recorded
Kali you are right about the measuring. Static voltage can only be read by special connectionless multimeter... Thats why i'm going to mke my measurements in the university using their probes...
I think that what steve mean is that when the signal is in reference to ground, for say alternating but only from 0 to x volts you will have positive aways in one of the electrodes... (never cross an arbitrary ground)
I think but i'm not sure that puharich was not over unity i cannot say that i'm sorry... he might have done exactly what meyer said but with a different input of energy... so legitimated
I would like to know Tony how is your test going..
BR
Sebosfact -
#134 · date not recorded
If you watch Puharich's video he says that his system is around 90% or so efficient and by the time everything is put into place on a car of something like that, that the over all systems efficiency will drop to around 70% or so.
Testing has been going pretty good. I just finished wrapping the 6-1 VIC coil, so hopefully I will be doing some testing with that this weekend.
Some stuff I've been looking at for awhile about Stan's coils is that the voltages from each choke, L1 & l2, are opposite to each other like say +1kv and -1kv. With this being said the currents will be 180 degrees out of phase. These out of phase currents are being sent to the same load so therefore the total current will be the difference of the two. for example, L1 = +1kv @ 200mA and L2 = -1kv @ 210mA, the current & voltage totals will be 2kv @ 10mA. The current difference would be to current leakage. This would explain how Stan was able to allow high voltages at very low currents in a "dead short" condition. It would also explain why Stan wrapped the chokes bifilar in the 6-1 coil to reduce the current leakage. This is just my thoughts and theories on what Stan was doing. What do you guys think? -
#135 · date not recorded
Kali,
I didn't take that picture but I was there when it was taken.I also wasn't doing the adjusting of it either.At the low voltage you see in the picture of the scope shot,it looks the same way at 80 volts across the cell.Those 120 hz pulses just grow with voltage increase.It would be very hard to see any resonance with this set up.The only resonance you might get will be with the higher frequencies,and since their riding on top of the 120 hz,I don't know what they would look like.
Don -
#136 ·
Tony i highly recommend to you reading all my last posts.
And possibly the all new thread too.
You are in the right way but you are not yet there. Yes the currents will go in opposite directions. The thing is that both cols will have a positive on its extremity going to the water. Therefore the voltage between the tubes is actually not very high initially but will be very high in relation to the ground reference. The thing is that the resonating coil, having impedance will restrict the current making the (plastic) capacitor to get charged, than after the pulse ends the plastic discharge into the water thru the coil generating the second pulse. When this second pulse happens the polarity changes and the " negative tube than become negative. And thats why the current get 180° out of phase.
The capacitor have an negative impedance therefore it charges instead of letting the current flow thru the coil.
you see?
Basically he puts two positives inside the water but than one of the positives flips and become negative!
-
#137 ·
would yall give us a referance to where the current should be 180 out of phase ? All i can remember Stan saying was 90. -
#138 · date not recorded
I mean 180° cause the pulse frequency will double thus i'm assuming that the voltage pulse will be in counter phases, however in the resonant part of the thing actually is 90°. Just like a normal inductor capacitor circuit.
180° is the angle of the electrode polarity flip in relation to the pulse frequency.
-
#139 · date not recorded
Testing has been going pretty good. I just finished wrapping the 6-1 VIC coil, so hopefully I will be doing some testing with that this weekend.
Do you use SS wire for the 6-1 coil?
Can you post a pic of your 6-1
?
-
#140 · date not recorded
First about the WFC, and it's diode capabilities:
I thought it is due to an inhomogeneous E-Field. I realized after some experiments this is not the case. I realized it is due to the Helmholtz-Layer! And if you do some experiments you will realize how extremely it reacts as a diode!!! Absolutely no current in the other direction. And if you think about it, you realize it is even quite logical, it is btw extremely similar to the PN-junction of a conventional diode, but just with ions.
Ha, as I was out in the woods with my bike, I always thought about the scope pic Don sent. I always thought, this output just doesn't make sense, if it's wired like that, and then I finally realized. that the wiring in the pic of the "8xA circuit" is probably wrong.
And as I thought about it, together with the diode fact above, I realized how it could work. And if it is like that, then both Don and I were right and wrong. I was right, when I presumed that the later VIC is just an extension of the "8xA circuit", but was wrong, when thinking that the wiring was like in the pic.
I don't know, if it is really like I think it is, but it would make perfect sense. It would easily explain all the following points:
* it explains why on some WFCs a VIC with resistive wire in the choke coils is needed, and for others not. And it would absolutely not work just to add a resistor in the circuit instead of the resistive wire!
* It is said, that it was seen that Stan introduced some white powder in the cell, which he demonstrated for the experts in the court case. And this would perfectly made sense. It explains why the cells for the older circuits (8XA) need tap water or even sometimes some electrolyte in it (depending on the tap water).
* It easily explains why the 8XA circuit needs an adjustable WFC plate distance. But not to alter the capacitance...
* It explains why distilled water would work best, but only with the VIC. It wouldn't work with the earlier circuits.
* it explains why he could change the voltage of the primary in the VIC. I always thought this is strange, as quite some circuitry is need for this and it wastes quite some electrical energy. As if you would like to change the amount of gas produced you would just switch it on and off with a certain duty cycle, so why change the amplitude?. But to be able to change this primary voltage amplitude is according to this theory an absolute must, for the VIC circuit to work correctly to split the water.
Final thought: It would split the water just with an E-field (just as Stan said), and really almost no current would flow in the circuitry. There surely wouldn't be any substantial conventional electrolysis happening...
Looks like I will have something to test this weekend...
Maybe there's something behind this idea, or not. I will see. Probably it's just another theory going down the grave...
@ sebosfato: How does your 6-1 coil look like? Here's a pic of mine:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6897/my61.jpg)
Edit:
Some tests later...
I realized that the faster waveform you see overlayed actually is the SCR switching frequency. IMHO it is only able to switch there, because the coils are resonating (an SCR can only switch off, if there's no current flowing). This actually means, it can be, that the actual original "8xA circuit", could be really wired like that, and not differently.
@sebosfato:
Up until know, I also always thought, that the two choke coils do have the same polarity to the cell, as this would be IMHO the only solution how you can get high voltages on the bifilars without destroying their insulation. But as Don described, he is sure this wasn't the case. And as can be seen in the 5-coil-vic he surely didn't always wind them bifilar.
Actually for me, both versions do make sense. But now, as I have now my theory, I know what kind of signal I would like to get (low voltage DC on the cell followed by a very short HV negative pulse). So first I will replicate the 8xA and see which coil wiring gives the pic as made by Don and from there on continue...
It is really annoying. To get this waveform would be such easy if there would be any FET which could withstand several KV (just one coil parallel to the WFC). But at about 1'500V is the upper limit for electric switches. If you want more, you need quite a complicated and expensive circuitry with stacked FETs. So IMHO we need a circuit which gets this waveform, in quite an easy way.
BTW: If you wire them with the same polarity to the cell, you actually get a circuit which works exactly as Dr Stiffler's electrolyser.
I realized that just by thinking about or simulating it, you can't get too far, as he obviously needed some parasitic values for the resonance of the coils, and here is the big question, which ones, to be able to really make the correct schemata of the real circuit. My experiments so far tend to show, that the distributed capacitance within the coils themselves is probably the major factor. It is IMHO definitively not the capacity of the WFC. And it is IMHO also not the capacitance between the choke coils, therefore it is not needed that they have to be wound bifilar. They just need to have exactly the same properties (L, R and C), so that they do have the same frequency and voltage (and wiring them bifilar is the easiest way of getting there). But it wouldn't be good to have a high coil capacity, as in a resonating circuit, the voltage gets higher the smaller the capacity. How can you make the capacity smaller? By wiring the coils in sections, like in the 6-1 coil. Surely this wiring in sections is also perfect for insulation purposes, so you get 2 for one... -
#141 · date not recorded
I was thinking about something else today with the VIC setup. What if the cell itself doesn't really play much of a role in the setup? What I mean by this is that maybe the cell just acts a resistive load in the circuit and the resonance that takes place in only between the chokes. This is something I noticed when I was testing my setup and when I got resonance I could disconnect my cell from the chokes and replace it with a larger plate cell with a higher capacitance (10.8nF) and it would still resonant at the same frequency as the smaller cell (1.6nF). -
#142 ·
Well, this is what as I said I also already discovered. The WFC capacitance is IMHO completely neglectable in relation to the resonance. It also wouldn't make sense in relation to the actual circuit, due to the diode. It would only make sense if the capacitance in between the bifilars would be important. But as I already yesterday wrote this is IMHO not the case, and as the 5-VIC-COIL shows, this is obviously not the case. This is why I wrote, that I think only the distributed (parasitic) capacitance of every coil itself is important.
First I thought that the capacity of the WFC in relation to the environment is important (single terminal capacity, like the topload of a tesla coil), but this capacity would be very small. And as experiments have shown is completely neglectable. The parasitic capacities of the coils are way much larger.
But hey, we won't find out, 'til we get a lotta gas for (almost) nothing...
But to mention is, that IMHO the capacity of the WFC does play an important role, but not in the resonance part. It is IMHO important that the capacity gets charged, so that a thick ion layer can develop at the anode. Only then, the "diode" behaviour can occur. ANd this capacitance is btw quite big. Way much larger than what you get, if you look at the capacitor as a normal capacitor (2 electrode at distance d with the dielectric water in it). This is, because the WFC will behave like a super capacitor (EDLC=Electric Double Layer Capacitor).
BTW: Interestingly in his later Memo, he even writes in the text itself, that the important resonance capacity is this distributed capacity. E.g.:QuoteWhile, the distributed capacitance (Cda xxx Cdn) of each coil experiencing
IMHO this is the simple description of a coil resonance with it's own L and C.
inductance coupling (619) elevates applied voltage level (Vn) to a higher voltage amplitude
(increasing voltage intensity)
Or from his "patent validation report":QuoteBeyond amp restricting characteristics of said Amp Inhibiting Circuit, the spiral-wrapped coils being paired together, also, causes voltage level enhancement beyond applied voltage input since the "Distributed Capacitance"/"Distributed Inductance" of said bifilar wrapped coils encourages the compounding effect (increasing magnetic field-strength during each pulsing cycle) of electromagnetic field-strength when applied Pulse-voltage Frequency passes though the positive energized Resonant Charging choke.
BTW: in this "patent validation report" he also writes, that the VIC is actually nothing but an extension of the "8xA circuit" with an additional Step-Up transformer...
This would explain why he first just used the "Amp Inhibiting Circuit". Then later (see patents) he used a step-up transformer on a separate core, and finally he wrapped alltogether on one core (VIC).
IMHO if the coils are wrapped with the same orientation (different polarity to the WFC), then the secondary delivers the DC necessary to charge the WFC capacity and the coils are responsible for short HV neg pulse to split the water.
Or if the coils are wrapped with the same polarity to the WFC, then the secondary would probably be responsible for the splitting and the bifilars are responsible for developing a thick ion layer, with the Dr. Stiffler principle.
But, I think I write and theorize again too much...Let's go again experimenting. A hole weekend is awaiting
Unfortunately I cannot find my SCRs (I know, I have once bought some)...gee, my chaos...
Edit2:
I just realized why the scope pic of Don didn't make any sense to me: It is upside down. If you look at the left, you see, where the reference potential is. Now, the waveform does make sense... -
#143 ·
Man The capacitance and coupling of the chokes is important cause when in resonance, the tuned coil will induce the double frequency pulse in the secondary and the choke so they must have a good coupling, thats why a closed loop core.
I made my vic in such a way that i can charge the coupling changing the distance between the laminations. I described it in my thread...
The double layer is just a name, is the same thing we were talking about related to separation of the ions by the electric fields.. -
#144 · date not recorded
Just for better understanding. This is the scope pic in the way one usually looks at it. The red line is zero reference.
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3618/dsc0107modified.jpg)
As you can see, it makes much more sense like that. As I again looked at the "8xA circuit" I realized that he didn't switch the gate as one usually does. This is very clever. As in his way, the SCR switches exactly synchronous with the resonating coils, you only have to do the gating.Quotethe tuned coil will induce the double frequency pulse in the secondary and the choke so they must have a good coupling
I actually don't quite get, what you exactly mean here. From where should the secondary get a second pulse?
IMHO the resonant chokes themselves will do a pulsing. Therefore strictly speaking it would IMHO not be necessary to have the secondary and the chokes on the same core. But it is certainly a big advantage if you do, as like that you will be able to directly push the chokes with the primary, and can so transfer them much more energy every cycle (which will result in much higher voltages), than just by charging their capacity every cycle, like you do if you have them separate.
But as I said, everybody is welcome for his theory...The final outcome is what's important...
-
#145 · date not recorded
Are you all using resistive wire? -
#146 · date not recorded
The coils must be in the same core cause they will together cause the frequency doubling that meyer talked about, at the resonant frequency the tuned coil tx5 as he always talked about it, will perform the amp restriction by letting the voltage pulse to charge the cell as the coil has a inductive reactance the charge wants first to charge the capacitor of the resonant tank, reason is capacitive reactance witch is negative so current leads voltage. ...
So when the pulse ends the charge accumulated in the cell will discharge thru tx5 so tx5 become a kind of primary that will induce another pulse in the cell restricting the amp. This is the moment where the polarity will flip in the negative voltage zone.
I have just finished the pulsing circuit and i'm finishing the assembly of the vic in few hours i hope to make it to work.
I don't know why but still not very stable the pulsing circuit but may work. I have the gated pulse trains signal... now i just need to find the inductance of my coil and estimate the resonant frequency to adjust the pulsing circuit. The problem is that i don't have a frequency meter anymore its broken (was from the multimeter) while i was trying to fix the multimeter it don't show the numbers anymore.
Hum maybe i'm going to ask my neighbor if he have one to lend me.
really shitty doing this with no equip but the lrc meter will be all that i will use.. and the sound card scope.- -
#147 · date not recorded
Are you all using resistive wire?
No i'm not, i do have some resistive wire but is bare and so bit hard to wind. At this moment i really think is not needed... But could be an improvement for the future..
Actually the coils must be coupled within them but does not actually need to be coupled with the transformer, but actually i think that is better... thats why he put all them in the vic..
I think that a lose coupling between the primary and the resonant coil is more desirable and thats why i think the chokes are closer in his figs ...
In this patent of the vic tx5... you actually see very clearly that he shows the insulation around the cell and the wires going into the insulation being connected to the cell only after the insulation. Than you see the ground connection of the tuned coil. And think the cell must be placed somewhere close contact to the ground and it will already form the resonant cavity-"!!!!!
-
#148 · date not recorded
QuoteSo when the pulse ends the charge accumulated in the cell will discharge thru tx5 so tx5 become a kind of primary that will induce another pulse in the cell restricting the amp.
This sounds a very strange theory to me, as when you do not put anymore externally some energy in it. The core will simply try to get rid of the field, and as all are on the same core, one coil cannot act as a primary for another, for all are just on the same core which is getting rid of his field. Finally this will result in having a completely zero field, but a lot of charged capacitances on the core, which will now again discharge, and there, they act again like a primary which will then again induce a current in the opposite direction (a resonant circuit).
But yes, if you mean, that the stray inductances of the bifilars which are not shared by the secondary could act as a primary, then I understand waht you mean. But then they would have different resonance frequencies. Is that what you mean?
Edit:
Ah now I see, you mean the WFC capacity is discharging again. But this still is IMHO exactly the same situation, just with an external capacity. Did you already try a simulation of your idea?Quotereally shitty doing this with no equip but the lrc meter will be all that i will use.. and the sound card scope.-
Gee, I admire your efforts at these conditions. I have all I need: Scopes, Frequency Generator, etc. As this is needed for part of my profession...
About the resistive wire:
I made my 6-1 coil with SS chokes. But the usual testing cores are just copper. IMHO the resistive wire is only needed in special conditions, namely when the WFC has a very high resistance (is very small), like e.g. for the injectors. Or the SS wire is also handy for situations where you don't have a core, as the SS will act like a core. But this is just my current opinion. -
#149 · date not recorded
Hi kalli nice to know you work with this..
I'm saying that the tx5 coil form a resonant tank with the cell capacitance in relation to ground. BEing the cell made of insulating material, if its placed in the yard, it will form a capacitance... If you connect the point where secondary and tx5 coils converge to the ground you form a resonant tank. Than being this part of a transformer that is being pulsed with 50% square wave, and this coil having its north with the same orientation of the secondary and the other coil so being positive when the others are positive will provide that when the pulse ends the capacitance will discharge thru this coil letting it to act like a primary during the pulse off. This will create another pulse of the same polarity in the secondary and the positive choke. This is the frequency doubling. During the pulse on the cell charge during the pulse off it discharges but doing so it not only induce the second pulse in the secondary but also ends by flipping the polarity of the "negative" electrode allowing a gigantic field with no current and again at the same time of course inducing the second pulse in the secondary diode choke ....
-
#150 · date not recorded
Kali,
the scope shot is correct the way it was.The unipolar pulses are the large humps,and the high frequencies are riding ontop of it,because both signals are meshed together.If you turn off the high frequencies,all you will see are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac coming out of the vari-ac.
sebosfato,
with all the different ways I've hooked up coils,I have nevr once seen the double pulses.I can find resonance with any set of coils and cell,but still have never seen the frequency doubling effect that Stan talks about.
The frequency doubling Stan talks about, is what he is trying to replicate from the 8xa circuit.The rectified ac from the vari-ac.
Don