6watts and 8 liters HHO per minute...........

#76 · 15 May 2018

http://halas.rice.edu/conversions i calculated ther frequency using the 3400 cm-1 wavenumber

this kind of mean that there are thousands of frequencies we could use and would be the same.... maybe that why meyer talk about fine tuning basically many many many frequencies could work we just need to adjust the phase thats why its called a phase locked loop the precision in change we are looking is very narrow probably thats why he used so many dividers on the pll so a fine frequency tune is much more important than having a huge range... of course it must be within the range of the resonance..

i´m starting to think that meyer pll would not have a frequency change only would manage automaticaly the number of pulses as functon of what is happening in the cell that because is more important to have this frequency stable tuned to this specific parameter..

Steve

#77 · date not recorded

Hi partners,

Here my first effort to replicate the tinman power setup with sparkgap.
My measurement was done on a very simple way with a multimeter. Later i will install my scopes.
The setup is simple.
1 piece 230v MOT
1 variac
1 capacitor 1 uF
1 sparkplug

The frequency is net related and i have put 1 diode in serie with the MOT and watercell.
Pulsed dc into the cell.
The multimeter measures
0.53 volts acros the cell when the variac is hitting 250v into the primary coil and cell.
Again, the voltage over the cell is very very low.
No gas is produced.
As soon as i put the sparkplug and capacitor in place, i get sparks on the plug.
Suddenly gas is produced!
Voltage over the cell is 0.83v..........

Here some pics

attachment_15313 attachment_15315 attachment_15317 attachment_15319 attachment_15323 attachment_15325 IMG_20180515_142822.jpg IMG_20180515_142512.jpg IMG_20180515_142451.jpg IMG_20180515_140844.jpg IMG_20180515_140853.jpg IMG_20180515_141040.jpg

Hardkrome

#78 · date not recorded

I guess sebasfato wants to make it more complicated than it really is. What I said is how it works, your not going to theorize it into something else. What's so damn hard about putting a cap across the cell with a fet on the low side. Between the cell and the cap.

sebosfato

#79 · date not recorded

sorry to maybe go off topic... but actually i´m trying to think the theory first so we dont have to keep doing things wrong... of course is just theory and any part could be wrong however its being so many years thinking about this that it apear to me all glues up
well first think i would look is how precise is my frequency from the pll... i remember it had lot of variance so is not a good to go

i think i will need to design the pll to have a very narrow range to get such needed precision....remember 100THZ well this is sort of the precision we need in phase..

nice test Steve... do you have used the same diagram you show on the first page? how is the waveform looking like? its pure water? what is the current going on water?

i have done tests with a spark gap... but only small stream of gas came out at that time we were following those Ronnies ideas.. i think he was kind of on it for real although he didnt help any of us to get there hopefully i took the time to understand what they teach me and i´m thankful for them to have share some with me that lead me to get some conclusions...

Hardkrome

#80 · date not recorded

You do not need fancy stuff.

tektrical

#81 · date not recorded

Good work, Steve. I tried it with my 12kV NST and I'm also getting bubbles, a significant amount. The cell is a couple of tapered restaurant sauce cups. I have a 5/16" spark gap with a DIY nano Farad cap. 300 W on the primary, but, with the diode, it's perhaps only half the rated value. edit: And I'm using well water.

With this many Watts, I'm wondering about steam?

tektrical

#82 · date not recorded

I let it run for a little while and there is some small amount of condensation inside the neck of the plastic bottle, but none on the lid. Bubbles breaking the surface may be spraying upwards. The effect seems to work better with no cap in the secondary circuit, just the spark gap. And the bubbles do blast when touched with a flame.

Steve

#83 · date not recorded

Quote from: sebosfato on May 15, 2018, 17:50:07 pm

sorry to maybe go off topic... but actually i´m trying to think the theory first so we dont have to keep doing things wrong... of course is just theory and any part could be wrong however its being so many years thinking about this that it apear to me all glues up
well first think i would look is how precise is my frequency from the pll... i remember it had lot of variance so is not a good to go

i think i will need to design the pll to have a very narrow range to get such needed precision....remember 100THZ well this is sort of the precision we need in phase..

nice test Steve... do you have used the same diagram you show on the first page? how is the waveform looking like? its pure water? what is the current going on water?

i have done tests with a spark gap... but only small stream of gas came out at that time we were following those Ronnies ideas.. i think he was kind of on it for real although he didnt help any of us to get there hopefully i took the time to understand what they teach me and i´m thankful for them to have share some with me that lead me to get some conclusions...

attachment_15327 IMG_20180515_201239.jpg

Steve

#84 · date not recorded

Quote from: tektrical on May 15, 2018, 19:37:55 pm

Good work, Steve. I tried it with my 12kV NST and I'm also getting bubbles, a significant amount. The cell is a couple of tapered restaurant sauce cups. I have a 5/16" spark gap with a DIY nano Farad cap. 300 W on the primary, but, with the diode, it's perhaps only half the rated value. edit: And I'm using well water.

With this many Watts, I'm wondering about steam?

Thanks, Tek,

I also use my own well water.
My sparkplug ran so hot that the tip was melting.
I have not measured the consumed amps yet, but the power sucked by the sparkplug must be something.
Or it is so hot because of some sort of resonance between the cap and the seconairy
It is clear that the load on the secondairy is effecting the primary with the cell .....
At least i have something to put my brains around for the moment.

Steve

#85 · date not recorded

The only difference with Tinman's setup is the frequency i am using.
I ll guess with higher frequencys, it might look a bit different.
Still, it is funny to see the cell producing gas when the sparkplug goes firing and doesnt produce gas when the sparkgap is off

Steve

#86 · date not recorded

As stated, my sparkplug melts....really really hot as hell.
So, my test windows is very small.
I tried more cells in parallel, but then no gas is produced during sparking.
It only works for me with just 1 Meyer tubes set, we all know.
If i use a smaller capacitor in serie with the sparkplug of 0.82uF, it doesnt work either.

sebosfato

#87 · date not recorded

Maybe I know why you are getting the gas only when it sparks .. when it sparks it reduces the impedance and allow current to flow thru the mot coil otherwise the coil holds the current too much ...

Steve

#88 · date not recorded

Quote from: sebosfato on May 15, 2018, 20:41:39 pm

Maybe I know why you are getting the gas only when it sparks .. when it sparks it reduces the impedance and allow current to flow thru the mot coil otherwise the coil holds the current too much ...

How does that work? The primary coil is around 2 ohms.

Another question: If i want to measure the amps at the cell, i must use a dc amp meter, right?
Why do i measure 0.01 amps and see a spark on the plug and lots of gas out of the cell?
I also have to pulse the input a bit more and i see even more gas..... ::)

What is going on here?

tektrical

#89 · date not recorded

I fired mine up again and took some readings. With the cap on the secondary the meter shows 13.7 V. Without the cap it's 19.8 V. This is with the meter in parallel with the cell's wires. Then I removed the cell's connection to the non diode side of the AC input (the wire which doesn't go directly to the transformer), and put the meter in series at this point, in series with the AC wire and the cell. With the cap, it shows 2.8 Amps feeding the NST, through the meter and the cell. Roughly 38 Watts. Without the cap it reads 3.9 Amps, or right at twice the Watts.

I took a video, to get a clip of the bubbles right at startup, before the water gets too cloudy, but Windows 10 won't play the video from my Android phone.

tektrical

#90 · date not recorded

I forgot to mention I had to move the meter's red wire to the other socket to measure the Amps.

The next thing to do is put a small tube on the side of my cell, with a thin line around the middle and both the top and bottom of this tube piped back into the cell. After enough water is poured into the cell to come up to the line on the gauge tube, a precise amount of water can be added to the cell, keeping track of how long it takes for the electrolysis to bring the water level back down to the reference line. Then the gas output can be easily calculated.

sebosfato

#91 · 16 May 2018

to be certain of what is going on ii think is better to wire an oscilloscope to see it well ... some meters may not show what we need just in time

try substituting the spark gap with a resistor of similar value and check if some gas get going ... probably half the energy is being dissipated on the sparkplug heating the resistor must be a power one because will also get hot...

if you add your probes on the resistor you can evaluate the current going

tektrical

#92 · 16 May 2018

The difference between a resister and a spark gap is the resister will not wait until the potential reaches a certain level before conducting. The gap produces a steep leading edge rich in upper harmonics, compared to a sine wave from a resister. Also, transient spikes tend to travel at differing speeds through a coil and this can make a scope unreliable. Perhaps a spectrum analyzer across the cell would be better?

sebosfato

#93 · 16 May 2018

a simple oscilloscope will show you what you need to see that is what is the waveform across the cell or the current you just need to wisely wire it to dont interfere in the ckt and to keep the oscilloscope safe

the resistor was just an example for you try and compare the gas production figure

Steve

#94 · date not recorded

I tried today with a full bridge rectifier, in stead of just 1 diode.
I got lots of gas and a lot of volts acros the cell.
But, the sparkgap was not triggerd, so i could not see what that would add....

cheers

sebosfato

#95 · 17 May 2018

i was making some drawings here and maybe the spark gap could be in parallel with the diode to make it work...

this allow the field to collapse and to connect the secondary to the chokes capacitance for all the game to go... its similar to a tvs but a tvs will consume more power probably...

i was thinking a way to use a tvs to detect the triger point but make it activate some switch to let the power to go straight to water...

a trigatron would be ideal but maybe some solidstate is possible

Steve

#96 · date not recorded

Hi all,

Did anybody tried the EEC ?

Steve

sebosfato

#97 · date not recorded

Hello mr

I have never tried the ecc after i have learned some physics... maybe now its just time as its much clearer to me

yesterday i wrote here but it went wrong on server

when we charge the water say positively it will give electrons to the high voltage we are applying and those electrons will go to ground if we dont allow them to go back to water (one wire)

the higher is the voltage and the gas flow the greater will be the high voltage current or ionization current so is best to have voltage levels and frequency for each ionization step

the ionization may be achieved by high voltage discharge on water and its electron extraction depends on the high voltage potential the cell is referent to ground

another way i see it happening is the electron extraction circuit being a kind of circuit that boils off electrons from the filament passing thru a grounded tube such that the electrons cannot make thru the circuit so ionizing but not consuming as much as power

basically it will form something like a tube diode so electrons will go one way but wont return

sebosfato

#98 · date not recorded

its not an easy task since the current must be enough to boil the electrons out

the way xray tubes do is to use chokes or a transformer for the filament current

so basically we need some current to flow

we need that when the current is passing thru the filament it get repelled by it!

we need high voltage positive on cell bath side to take electrons out of it

and at the same time is necessary to revert the polarity to pull electrons out of the filament

it requires a transformer secondary wired to a diode in series with this diode will be the amp consuming device ( a tube diode possibly with a small capacitor in parallel with it ) after it go the cell anode and after the cell a coil that close the circuit with the secondary

at this circuit point i added a capacitor and a diode connected to ground to allow the cell potential to be positive referent to ground during the pulse but when the voltage reverses the capacitor will allow enough current to just revert the polarity of the cell and amp consuming device to boil electrons out of it more easily when the polarity of the cell is negative it will repel electrons allowing to take them out of it

Steve

#99 · date not recorded

Hi Fabio,

I updated the servcr , yesterday. The forum software is also updated... Took me some hours in totall.
It seems to work fine now.

cheers

Steve

#100 · date not recorded

The question is: Does the EEC bring something. If it does, what does it bring.
Can i measure or see it?