Back to Basics
Started by unknown · · 192 posts · last reply 16 December 2024
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#1 · date not recorded
Hi all. Been a while.
Here's a basic question to think about...
What REALLY is the water fuel cell?
Answers please ... -
#2 · date not recorded
Let me go a little further with the first question...
It's not a basic capacitor. How would you draw it as a schematic... -
#3 · date not recorded
Really? Nobody wants to take a stab at this? 😂
Come on guys, I'm trying to make a point... -
#4 · date not recorded
Doesn't the WFC behave sort of like this?
What is this?
This is the target frequency people.attachment_16654 images.png
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#5 · date not recorded
I dont think so.
2 plates spaced by a water dielectric behaves like a resistor. You can frequency sweep it from DC to 1 GHz and see no changes in voltage/current/gas generation, thats not the behaviour of a capacitor used in a LC tuned circuit. Stan even says that in the WFC memo, that the water will become part of the circuit in form of resistance.
When you energize this kind of reactor, the voltage that develops across it, is the product of RxI, nothing more, and you get pure electrolysis only.
All you can do is increase the reactor impedance, to get a higher V/I ratio, and therefore rip the water molecule with less current. You cannot reach resonance with an inductor in series with a resistor.
In my opinion, this voltage ripping the molecule apart, only works in a very small scale, thats why he moved to the injectors. -
#6 · date not recorded
I feel like timeshell is correct... You have resistance and reactance in the cell this is why it will never behave like a conventional LC tank circuit.. Its over damped cause of the existence of R in the cell.. Makes it s parallel RC circuit of sorts..
But in this case the R exist in the same space as C. they are in the same component..
When I have done test with a lcz meter on a cell it DOES NOT behave like you would want it to match the idea of parallel RC.. Its actually inversed.. You would think that as freq increased the phase angle would increase and the cell would pass more power into the reactive component and less power into the resistive component of the cell.. But based on the lcz meter this is opposite.. It shows the phase angle increases as you lower the frequency. The capacitance value of the cell increases a lot as you lower the frequency as well.. which is not normal for a pure capacitor to do.
A pure capacitor having a pure dielectric would maintain close tolerance of capacitance reading at all test freqs. Spring water does not.
The only thoughts I can come up with this situation is that this parallel RC has another feature that differs from a conventional parallel RC circuit. It is a liquid dielectric with electrolytes. This allows for things like a hemholtz layer to form on the electrode... A form of electrochemical storage of power with the ionic contaminates occurs they refer to as pseudo capacitance.
Pseudo capacitance may be what the LCZ meter is presenting as I lowered the test frequency.. The lower frequency would allow more time for ion collection to occur at the electrodes during the test. also a false appearance of increased capacitance.
A water cell has a poor power factor.. There are losses in it from resistance but if there is a way to produce a great amount of fuel with a poor power factor that's ok because this capacitor is not just a capacitor for storing and processing power in a circuit. Its a material processor as well. Its expected to have some losses and consume energy in the production of fuel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudocapacitor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer_(surface_science)
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#7 ·
Just sweep your cell from DC to 1GHz monitoring current and voltage, absolutely no phase shift between them, using a power sweep, 100V DC at least. It`s a resistor. You`ll never get "pure voltage potential" in a resistor to split the water. And dont forget to use a carbon resistor as a current shunt for current measurement, wire resistors give false readings. -
#8 ·
just my two cents on this technology is that the wfc always returns some voltage / current, when you switch the power off.
It acts a bit as a capacitor.
If you can pick up that charge then your second pulse will be maximum twice the voltage as then your powersupply is giving...
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#9 ·
but maybe we are all wrong here and we should listen to good old Bob Boyce and setup a pulsing system that collects power from the aether -
#10 · date not recorded
Well, I made this test over and over. From DC to 1GHz, it acts as a resistor, with voltage in the cell beign Rcell x Icell. No voltage/current returning when switching off signal, only resistance (voltage and current are linear functions). The cell can hold aprox. 1,5[V] before electrolysis begin and thats all.
As Stan said:QuoteWater now becomes part of the Voltage Intensifier Circuit in the form of "resistance" between electrical ground and pulsefrequency positive-potential ... helping to prevent electron flow within the pulsing circuit (AA) of Figure 1-1.
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#11 ·
Hello uziao.
We can see the cell behaving like a capacitor below the 2V.
Get a milliamp meter, and an good precision adjustable power supply.
Rise the voltage like 0,25 or 0.5 at a time, you will see the milliamps climb up as you rise the voltage and come down again, until you reach the 2v marks.
Also, if you use a signal generator and an oscilloscope across the cell, you can observe one thing:
You will get a pure dc voltage below 2v threshold, above that, you will have the signal you put in (eg. square wave) and it behaves like a resistor.
If we want to get further on this technology we need to forget about the patents and other stuff and learn by experimenting and observation, Meyer did not gave everything in a silver plate to everybody out there, and don't assume everything he says as the full truth, he was not that stupid to give his work for free. -
#12 ·
Yeah, if you do not have enough voltage to start electrolysis, you have no current flowing, whats the point? How does this relate to high voltage water dissociation? All my tests were made with high voltage and the cell behaves always like a resistor. If you restrict the current, using inductors, you`ll have less voltage in the cell, and therefore less gas, because as I said, Vcell = Rcell X Icell. -
#13 ·
The point is to prove that water behave as dielectric, but under that threshold voltage.
We are on this for years over this forum.
I dont know how many knowledge do yo have about Meyer, but if you are new to this, I suggest you to read the and do some math about the production and power.
As a lot of people had seen, there is a lot of bad figures on Meyer numbers, even in this document.
My intention is only save people some time and frustration about this, but everybody has the legitime right to desagree, but the numbers don't lie. -
#14 ·
QuoteYeah, if you do not have enough voltage to start electrolysis, you have no current flowing
You do have current flow without electrolysis, until the "capacitor" charges up.
You can try it with a big cell and you can observe it easily.
If it looks to you irrelevant, it is up to you, but there is more interesting things happening in the cell that some people do not talk about or is just ignoring. -
#15 · date not recorded
QuoteYeah, if you do not have enough voltage to start electrolysis, you have no current flowing
You do have current flow without electrolysis, until the "capacitor" charges up.
You can try it with a big cell and you can observe it easily.
If it looks to you irrelevant, it is up to you, but there is more interesting things happening in the cell that some people do not talk about or is just ignoring.
Is called displacement current, it is the charge that builds up before the conduction current kicks in.
I'm really confused right now, are we trying to replicate Meyers high voltage, high frequency aparatus, or are we trying to prove some low voltage stuff that has nothing to do with meyer? If you make your cell bigger, you'll have less resistance between the plates and more current will flow for the same voltage. Thats why he moved to the high resistance injectors, he even needed stainless steel enameled wire with high resistance in order to match the transformer to the injectors. What im trying to say, is that the only way to achieve high voltage, with low current in a water bath, is to make the electrodes very small. The cells impedance will never change, even when in resonance, because above 2v, it is a resistor. You cant restrict current in a resistor, you cant violate ohms law, you cant make voltage go up and amps go down in a resistor, the only way is if you make the resistance high enough, making it small enough.
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#16 · date not recorded
Uziao , I agree to desagree...
If you want to know this technology, you should understand any aspect of it.
The point I made about the capacitor under 2V was found experimenting.
About the impedance of the cell never change, it is not completely true.
If you really want to know more about this, search over this forum, or do your homework...
Cheers. -
#17 · date not recorded
Quotehe even needed stainless steel enameled wire with high resistance in order to match the transformer to the injectors
This is not the only important property of this wire (430fr), and most people are ignoring something VERY important about that.
Remember, when you use resistive element, the power is dissipated on it...
Calculate the power loss on that resistance and tell me what do you see...
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#18 · date not recorded
Quotehe even needed stainless steel enameled wire with high resistance in order to match the transformer to the injectors
This is not the only important property of this wire (430fr), and most people are ignoring something VERY important about that.
Remember, when you use resistive element, the power is dissipated on it...
Calculate the power loss on that resistance and tell me what do you see...
You are right, it takes little power to convert some microdroplets of water into hydrogen, thats the beauty of the small injectors, and, according to stan, you'll end up ionizing the hydrogen as a "side effect" after the water dissociation. The injector electrode resistance needs to be equal to the coils resistance to ensure max power transfer. When you make the electrodes small, the resistance goes up, it means that the ratio V/I increases and you have more voltage than current.
You cant do the same with some 4 inch long cells, it takes much more power and much more current, mine has about 100ohms resistance. If you put 10kV in a 100ohms resistance, you'll end up with 100A. If you put 10kV in a 10kohms resistance, you'll end up with 1A. -
#19 · date not recorded
Well, I made this test over and over. From DC to 1GHz, it acts as a resistor, with voltage in the cell beign Rcell x Icell. No voltage/current returning when switching off signal, only resistance (voltage and current are linear functions). The cell can hold aprox. 1,5[V] before electrolysis begin and thats all.
As Stan said:QuoteWater now becomes part of the Voltage Intensifier Circuit in the form of "resistance" between electrical ground and pulsefrequency positive-potential ... helping to prevent electron flow within the pulsing circuit (AA) of Figure 1-1.
You are correct Uziao
IF the chokes are made so that the electrons can not flow at a high rate through the positive choke and hit the forward diode, but rather get trapped in the choke, the positive tube will polarize.(just like Stan states). It also has to be on a floating ground so the current is limited. (isolation xfmr).
The reason your not getting more than 1.5v on the cell is because the electrons are whizzing right through the positive plate into the choke so fast a positive charge can not build up on the plate.
For example, The gap of the cell and the conductivity of the water determine how much voltage will build up on the cell. A .060 gap with rain water will start making gas somewhere around 24volts. Tap water would be around 14v. (straight across the cell) A tighter gap would also give less voltage. This is all dependent on how the chokes are made.
Go to 1:04 in the video
[youtube]https://youtu.be/qnILxgpNjfI?t=64[/youtube]
In my tests, with a .060 gap and rain water, The pulse train would charge up to the 24v level. Meaning the whole pulse train floats positive. From there with continued pulsing, it would step up to 90v. When pulsing is stopped. The pulse train will drop fast to the 24v level then very slowly down. (the gas output is still a function of the current in the circuit)
So, once the threshold level is met we get electron crossover from ground and electrolysis. If this was not the case the cell would keep charging higher and higher (like he states).
He does a lot of mixing different processes with his patents etc to cover all the bases for patent infringement. What he describes applies to water vapor in the water injector because it is in a different state. If this is applied to that, then it all makes sense. The voltage and resistance go sky high. However, it is also possible to do it on a small scale like I did, but your not going to be making boat loads of gas.
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#20 ·
Well, I made this test over and over. From DC to 1GHz, it acts as a resistor, with voltage in the cell beign Rcell x Icell. No voltage/current returning when switching off signal, only resistance (voltage and current are linear functions). The cell can hold aprox. 1,5[V] before electrolysis begin and thats all.
As Stan said:QuoteWater now becomes part of the Voltage Intensifier Circuit in the form of "resistance" between electrical ground and pulsefrequency positive-potential ... helping to prevent electron flow within the pulsing circuit (AA) of Figure 1-1.
You are correct Uziao
IF the chokes are made so that the electrons can not flow at a high rate through the positive choke and hit the forward diode, but rather get trapped in the choke, the positive tube will polarize.(just like Stan states). It also has to be on a floating ground so the current is limited. (isolation xfmr).
The reason your not getting more than 1.5v on the cell is because the electrons are whizzing right through the positive plate into the choke so fast a positive charge can not build up on the plate.
For example, The gap of the cell and the conductivity of the water determine how much voltage will build up on the cell. A .060 gap with rain water will start making gas somewhere around 24volts. Tap water would be around 14v. (straight across the cell) A tighter gap would also give less voltage. This is all dependent on how the chokes are made.
Go to 1:04 in the video
[youtube]https://youtu.be/qnILxgpNjfI?t=64[/youtube]
In my tests, with a .060 gap and rain water, The pulse train would charge up to the 24v level. Meaning the whole pulse train floats positive. From there with continued pulsing, it would step up to 90v. When pulsing is stopped. The pulse train will drop fast to the 24v level then very slowly down. (the gas output is still a function of the current in the circuit)
So, once the threshold level is met we get electron crossover from ground and electrolysis. If this was not the case the cell would keep charging higher and higher (like he states).
He does a lot of mixing different processes with his patents etc to cover all the bases for patent infringement. What he describes applies to water vapor in the water injector because it is in a different state. If this is applied to that, then it all makes sense. The voltage and resistance go sky high. However, it is also possible to do it on a small scale like I did, but your not going to be making boat loads of gas.
When you change the water type and cell gap, you only change the resistance of the cell, therefore you need more voltage to push the same current thru it, if you put distilled water the 1.5v can climb up to 50v before electrolysis start. You'll always have the voltage in phase with current, never high voltage only polarization, you cant change it with chokes, resonance or whatsoever. When you polarize a resistor, current flows thru it. The real capacitor has a dielectric that does not allow DC current across it, the water capactor does not have this, therefore DC current will always flow thru it, like a resistor. The water capactior will never show a phase shift between current and voltage, even in its "polarization" phase. The result is both in phase, always, as in a resistor.
Measure your current with a carbon resistor, along with the voltage across the cell, and post the results to us. I did this many times, and the voltage waveform is identical to the current, V=R.I, linear function, more voltage = more current and never the opposite, thats impossible in a resistor, no matter how the chokes are. When you have bigger chokes, you have low voltage in the cell because they restrict all the current in the circuit. I have a Tektronix TPS 2014, so I can see both current and voltage directly in the same circuit without the need of isolation, this way the measurements are more accurate. -
#21 ·
Yes, the current and voltage are always in phase. I just made it work the way he said it was supposed to. That's what I found. I kind of thought of it as a resistive inductor because the metal tubes polarized and stored a charge. I was able to disconnect the circuit and put a LED across the cell and keep it lit for about 20 seconds as the charge bled off the cell. That is only the tubes not the circuit.Stan talks about changing the structure of the metal.
That's not how I made the chokes.
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#22 ·
Yes, the current and voltage are always in phase. I just made it work the way he said it was supposed to. That's what I found. I kind of thought of it as a resistive inductor because the metal tubes polarized and stored a charge. I was able to disconnect the circuit and put a LED across the cell and keep it lit for about 20 seconds as the charge bled off the cell. That is only the tubes not the circuit.Stan talks about changing the structure of the metal.
That's not how I made the chokes.
You'll never polarize and crack water with current and voltage in phase, you'll only do electrolysis, when you increase the voltage, more and more current will flow. I put my "water capacitor" inside a resonance lc circuit, with 300V input, my pulse peaks at 1000V at resonance, I have much gas, so much that it pops out of the top of the container, but the current peaks are insane, pure electrolysis. It could be a more efficient type, but nothing about low current and high voltage.
If you want to keep the LED on for longer, you need to replace the plates material. Instead of two plates of SS, use one SS and other made of aluminum and change water for sulfuric acid. This is a well known technology, called "the battery". -
#23 ·
Something interesting happens when you apply voltage across a "water capacitor":
As you rise the voltage, without restricting it, the resistance drops, in a non-linear behaviour, Andija Puharich call it a non-linear load.
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#24 ·
This is my water cell. Seems to act like a capacitor to me.
attachment_16656 attachment_16658 IMG_1642[1486].jpg 32NE0159.GIF
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#25 ·
This is my water cell. Seems to act like a capacitor to me.
If you check the current, it will have the same waveform, it wont be a capacitor current waveform.
https://industrial.panasonic.com/content/data/common/ss-files/tech14-06_ww.png
Your waveform is only a result of Icell x Rcell. It looks like a charging capacitor because the inductors are lagging the current, and the current, multiplied by the resistance of the cell, gives you this waveform. But this waveform is only the inductor current waveform.