Back to Basics
Started by unknown · · 192 posts · last reply 16 December 2024
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#26 ·
LC transient response to DC is identical to the LR circuit.
attachment_16662 attachment_16664 lr_transient.gif RC+Transient+Analysis+I+VC (1).jpg
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#27 ·
LC transient response to DC is identical to the LR circuit.
Its LR and RC, not LC.
Yeah the waveforms are similar, but current and voltage are inverted in the components. Capacitor lags voltage peaks current, inductor lags current peaks voltage.
YOu have an LR circuit, your cell voltage has the same waveform of a resistor voltage in series with an inductor.
You have exactly the blue curve in your first pic, the inductor current waveform, multiplied by the resistance of your resistor (water capacitor), gives you the "water capacitor" waveform. -
#28 · date not recorded
Not my latest but you get an idea.
Yellow: input
Blue: voltage on the cell.
The current is identical to voltage, pure electrolysis. This waveform is just the result of the current being modulated by the inductors (inductor modulator as said by Stan), multiplied by the resistance of the cell.attachment_16666 1663161920762.jpg
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#29 · date not recorded
A coil with zero resistance has infinite time to get maximum current for any applied voltage..
A coil with infinite resistance will have no current for any applied voltage... such coil does not exist however when the resistance is bigger than the dielectric coeficient the coil can behave as kind of a capacitor...
Stan makes citation tay he han patent on dielectric used to cause dissociation by colision
Eccles uses plastic to kind of achieve the same...
Stan says that no electron is ejected from water during the polarization... that is only possible below 1,24 v since its the voltage that depending on the material the water start to ionize and give up electrons to the electrode...
The concept of a pressed or stretched spring trying to oscillate... only the middle is free to oscillate
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#30 ·
QuoteYeah, if you do not have enough voltage to start electrolysis, you have no current flowing
You do have current flow without electrolysis, until the "capacitor" charges up.
You can try it with a big cell and you can observe it easily.
If it looks to you irrelevant, it is up to you, but there is more interesting things happening in the cell that some people do not talk about or is just ignoring.
Is called displacement current, it is the charge that builds up before the conduction current kicks in.
I'm really confused right now, are we trying to replicate Meyers high voltage, high frequency aparatus, or are we trying to prove some low voltage stuff that has nothing to do with meyer? If you make your cell bigger, you'll have less resistance between the plates and more current will flow for the same voltage. Thats why he moved to the high resistance injectors, he even needed stainless steel enameled wire with high resistance in order to match the transformer to the injectors. What im trying to say, is that the only way to achieve high voltage, with low current in a water bath, is to make the electrodes very small. The cells impedance will never change, even when in resonance, because above 2v, it is a resistor. You cant restrict current in a resistor, you cant violate ohms law, you cant make voltage go up and amps go down in a resistor, the only way is if you make the resistance high enough, making it small enough.
I like your way of thinking...idk Y after reading ur post Google decided to show me why a ceiling fan needs a capacitor lol ...anyways good luck hope to read more from ya
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#31 · date not recorded
Look familiar? -
#32 · date not recorded
This is my water cell. Seems to act like a capacitor to me.
Gapping the core in your chokes will also help allow those pulses to have a wider amplitude swing.
attachment_16723 315141636_5795223580500448_8814583467286610319_n.jpg
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#33 · date not recorded
90v peak to peak?
How about the amps?
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#34 · date not recorded
Amperage is absolute minimum with such short periods. <200mA max, but as low as 5-10mA in certain cases which are inversely proportionate with gate offtime. -
#35 ·
Amperage is absolute minimum with such short periods. <200mA max, but as low as 5-10mA in certain cases which are inversely proportionate with gate offtime.
Is this peak? RMS? How are you measuring it? -
#36 · date not recorded
I believe you want to charge up the cell using voltage LESS THAN what is needed to achieve electrolysis. This is the only way to get a charge on the cell. Once the cell is charged, only then should the high voltage pulse hit it to liberate the charge. If you keep hitting it with +electrolysis voltage, that's all you're going to get. The coils should be opposing reach other and tuned appropriately. This limits it to charging as the fields cancel each other out. If tuned right, this also helps keep the initial voltage low. This would start the process. Once you get the cell charged to where you want it, then up the voltage and retune resonance to up the voltage so high spikes crack all the water that has already been charged below electrolysis voltage. -
#37 · date not recorded
Yes, I agree. Duty Cycle Pulses were Stan's method of controlling this sustained polarization and bursting amplitudes.
Also, most people never realize the great inhibition on tuning pulses and core saturation, that a percentage based duty cycle adjustment causes. All your signal generators are flawed, making it nearly impossible to tune replications of Stan's circuits due to all the differences in the VIC Matrix caused by parasitics and ideal vs real component behaviors.
Only having independent width and spacing control circumvents this flaw. I'm writing an article on my research on this subject that I will share sometime soon.
attachment_16815 xNeZwWT4hfB8eX34-screenshot-from-2022-06-21-21-22-23.png
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#38 ·
I believe you want to charge up the cell using voltage LESS THAN what is needed to achieve electrolysis. This is the only way to get a charge on the cell. Once the cell is charged, only then should the high voltage pulse hit it to liberate the charge. If you keep hitting it with +electrolysis voltage, that's all you're going to get. The coils should be opposing reach other and tuned appropriately. This limits it to charging as the fields cancel each other out. If tuned right, this also helps keep the initial voltage low. This would start the process. Once you get the cell charged to where you want it, then up the voltage and retune resonance to up the voltage so high spikes crack all the water that has already been charged below electrolysis voltage.
I have this belief too.. somehow I believe when Stan talk about the cell working like a short circuit is about making the minimum required voltage become zero at some point and even reversed!
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#39 ·
Yes, I agree. Duty Cycle Pulses were Stan's method of controlling this sustained polarization and bursting amplitudes.
Also, most people never realize the great inhibition on tuning pulses and core saturation, that a percentage based duty cycle adjustment causes. All your signal generators are flawed, making it nearly impossible to tune replications of Stan's circuits due to all the differences in the VIC Matrix caused by parasitics and ideal vs real component behaviors.
Only having independent width and spacing control circumvents this flaw. I'm writing an article on my research on this subject that I will share sometime soon.
What you mean? With flawed signal generators? What would make it impossible to tune? To have mark space is not hard… even the pll can be made to have variable duty cycle… the fracture cell also Is some very good for the abilities
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#40 ·
Yes, I agree. Duty Cycle Pulses were Stan's method of controlling this sustained polarization and bursting amplitudes.
Also, most people never realize the great inhibition on tuning pulses and core saturation, that a percentage based duty cycle adjustment causes. All your signal generators are flawed, making it nearly impossible to tune replications of Stan's circuits due to all the differences in the VIC Matrix caused by parasitics and ideal vs real component behaviors.
Only having independent width and spacing control circumvents this flaw. I'm writing an article on my research on this subject that I will share sometime soon.
I dont know. Stan has the 7490 I.C in the circuit. this chip divides frequency and outputs a 50-50 duty cycle, so he never adjusted duty cycle in the high frequency signal, he only adjusts the gate (low freq signal) pulse and width. In the images where the primary signal is round and stretched is the result of transformer action only, not electronics.
So far, I never saw someone increasing the voltage at the cell with decreasing current at the same time. More voltage = morre current, always, thats ohms law. If you apply a HV pulse, current will flow based on the cell resistance. -
#41 ·
The only way I see to reduce the current is to purify water… but than no electrolysis happens! -
#42 · date not recorded
The only way I see to reduce the current is to purify water… but than no electrolysis happens!
Even if the water if purified, the current voltage relationship will be positive linear, increasing voltage will increase current (much less current, of course because purified water has higher impedance). -
#43 · date not recorded
Well supposedly when resonance is reached in the cavity according to Meyer there is a kind effect on the current flow… the question is what resonance he was talking about? In that patent he talked about matching the wavelength of the movement of the ions or something very close to that…
If the resonance is in the audio range than it may not be so hard to get it ringing… -
#44 · date not recorded
Yes, I agree. Duty Cycle Pulses were Stan's method of controlling this sustained polarization and bursting amplitudes.
Also, most people never realize the great inhibition on tuning pulses and core saturation, that a percentage based duty cycle adjustment causes. All your signal generators are flawed, making it nearly impossible to tune replications of Stan's circuits due to all the differences in the VIC Matrix caused by parasitics and ideal vs real component behaviors.
Only having independent width and spacing control circumvents this flaw. I'm writing an article on my research on this subject that I will share sometime soon.
I dont know. Stan has the 7490 I.C in the circuit. this chip divides frequency and outputs a 50-50 duty cycle, so he never adjusted duty cycle in the high frequency signal, he only adjusts the gate (low freq signal) pulse and width. In the images where the primary signal is round and stretched is the result of transformer action only, not electronics.
So far, I never saw someone increasing the voltage at the cell with decreasing current at the same time. More voltage = morre current, always, thats ohms law. If you apply a HV pulse, current will flow based on the cell resistance.
The high voltage pulse is temporary. It's only there to break the water after it's already been charged by the low voltage pulses. Since the water is already near the breaking point, the high voltage pulse is just the straw to break the camel's back as it were.
This is why you can accomplish this effect even by feeding only 2V into the VIC primary. -
#45 · date not recorded
Well supposedly when resonance is reached in the cavity according to Meyer there is a kind effect on the current flow… the question is what resonance he was talking about? In that patent he talked about matching the wavelength of the movement of the ions or something very close to that…
If the resonance is in the audio range than it may not be so hard to get it ringing…
If we look at the flat vic core, matching the wavelenght makes more sense. The flat core VIC has aprox 750m of wire. Assuming he used quarterwave length, the fundamental freq has a 750mx4 = 3000m. 3000m is the wavelength of a 100khz signal assuming an air core. With a ferrite in the middle the inductance increases and the fundamental will lower a little bit.
Seems more plausible. I had the flat vic transformer with the identical core and windings but no sucess in achieving resonance. The only difference is that I didnt have 10 cells in series, apart from the fact that Stan probably wire the 10 VIC transformers in series to drive the 10 series tubes.
If he had 10 vic transformers in series, 100khz fundamental would drop to 10khz just like he said in his patents and yes, the transformers works in series and it is a very common stuff in some high voltage circuits like co2 laser cutter power supplies. -
#46 · date not recorded
I’m not totally sure if the length of the wire is so important… also this long coils resonate at much lower frequency than 100kgz from what I remember from testing..
I believe there’s a contradiction between Stan words and what was shown
Meyer talk about bifilar all the time and this Vic’s founded don’t seem to have any bifilar coil in it….
For me it’s more likely that the epg were the real used Vic than those
When applying a frequency above the self-resonant frequency of the coil supposedly than the signal is transported in the coil by capacitive effect meaning the coil kind of behave some like a capacitor above it’s resonant frequency… and what that mean?
Well it mean that when you apply a voltage to it it gets charged like a capacitor would… a simple coil would reverse its polarity immediately after it’s disconnected however a coilpacitor will be able to discharge the capacitive side of the coil first and only after that get the reversal of polarity… basically energy get consumed since the capacitance charge is opposite polarity to the inductor at the moment just where the current is interrupted…
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#47 · date not recorded
I’m not totally sure if the length of the wire is so important… also this long coils resonate at much lower frequency than 100kgz from what I remember from testing..
I believe there’s a contradiction between Stan words and what was shown
Meyer talk about bifilar all the time and this Vic’s founded don’t seem to have any bifilar coil in it….
For me it’s more likely that the epg were the real used Vic than those
When applying a frequency above the self-resonant frequency of the coil supposedly than the signal is transported in the coil by capacitive effect meaning the coil kind of behave some like a capacitor above it’s resonant frequency… and what that mean?
Well it mean that when you apply a voltage to it it gets charged like a capacitor would… a simple coil would reverse its polarity immediately after it’s disconnected however a coilpacitor will be able to discharge the capacitive side of the coil first and only after that get the reversal of polarity… basically energy get consumed since the capacitance charge is opposite polarity to the inductor at the moment just where the current is interrupted…
Probably not important. If I remeber correctly the 3 3000 turns coils connected in series resonate at 15-18khz with the thin vic core. With thicker cores I have it goes down to 9-10 khz. -
#48 · date not recorded
I’m not totally sure if the length of the wire is so important… also this long coils resonate at much lower frequency than 100kgz from what I remember from testing..
I believe there’s a contradiction between Stan words and what was shown
Meyer talk about bifilar all the time and this Vic’s founded don’t seem to have any bifilar coil in it….
For me it’s more likely that the epg were the real used Vic than those
When applying a frequency above the self-resonant frequency of the coil supposedly than the signal is transported in the coil by capacitive effect meaning the coil kind of behave some like a capacitor above it’s resonant frequency… and what that mean?
Well it mean that when you apply a voltage to it it gets charged like a capacitor would… a simple coil would reverse its polarity immediately after it’s disconnected however a coilpacitor will be able to discharge the capacitive side of the coil first and only after that get the reversal of polarity… basically energy get consumed since the capacitance charge is opposite polarity to the inductor at the moment just where the current is interrupted…
Agreed.
The capacitor's dielectric material (in this case, water) and the conductive plates will have some inherent resistance, which is often referred to as equivalent series resistance (ESR). When you take this ESR into account, the capacitor can exhibit RC-like behavior to some extent. -
#49 · date not recorded
Yes, I agree. Duty Cycle Pulses were Stan's method of controlling this sustained polarization and bursting amplitudes.
Also, most people never realize the great inhibition on tuning pulses and core saturation, that a percentage based duty cycle adjustment causes. All your signal generators are flawed, making it nearly impossible to tune replications of Stan's circuits due to all the differences in the VIC Matrix caused by parasitics and ideal vs real component behaviors.
Only having independent width and spacing control circumvents this flaw. I'm writing an article on my research on this subject that I will share sometime soon.
What you mean? With flawed signal generators? What would make it impossible to tune? To have mark space is not hard… even the pll can be made to have variable duty cycle… the fracture cell also Is some very good for the abilities
When you increase frequency (to get more pulse count), you indirectly decrease BOTH the width (ontime) and the spacing (offtime) equally.
When you adjust duty cycle % (to get more on-time) you indirectly decrease the spacing (off-time)
When you increase gate frequency to reduce pulse count, you indirectly reduce T3A (and T4A) making the gate period shorter.
Compounded by the AND gate logic required, every adjustment you make results in a tradeoff of "parameters" for the rest of the pulse, train, and gate.
What if you wanted to reduce spacing, but keep the same width? (PWM is current flow, which is directly related to managing core saturation per pulse/train)
What if you weren't bound to such shackles?
[youtube]https://youtu.be/me39I__5WjM[/youtube]
Screencast from 03-16-2023 06:12:06 PM.webm
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#50 · date not recorded
Not to mention, dual-crossover sequenced switching that employs negative and positive elongation independently for width and spacing, and an independent offset control.
Or, how Stan simulated a biased AC wave using sequenced and random alternations swapping the B+ offtime reference during gate periods.
Screencast from 03-16-2023 06:28:52 PM.webm Screencast from 03-16-2023 06:35:08 PM.webm