Back to Basics
Started by unknown · · 192 posts · last reply 16 December 2024
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#126 ·
Here's something else. Current lags voltage 90⁰ right? When you apply the pulse to your primary, the primary will try to draw as much current according to its resistance (V=IR). You need to choke the current going into your primary so that the voltage gets applied only, with as little current as possible. The voltage will still get transformed and the current will be negligible on the secondary. This will help the water to resist any remaining current to allow a higher voltage charge across the water cell.
The water needs to resist the current until the voltage peaks at resonance are high enough to overcome the gap. At 1mm, that would be 1.8kV. -
#127 · date not recorded
Choke, or short pulsing?
If you pulse the transformer, then first voltage goes up, then electrons start to flow. Current.
Why not micro pulse the transformer?
Cut off the pulse before the big current flows in?
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#128 · date not recorded
If that works for you, sure. I have found limiting the current on the primary works better for me. -
#129 · date not recorded
Just an example.
To set a constant current of 1 mA with an LM317, you can configure it as a constant current source by placing a resistor between its output (OUT) and adjust (ADJ) pins. This configuration uses the LM317's characteristic that it maintains a 1.25V voltage drop between the output and adjust terminals.
Steps to Set Up a 1 mA Constant Current Source
1. Choose the Resistor: To set the current, use the formula:
I = \frac{1.25V}{R}
Rearranging for , we get:
R = \frac{1.25V}{I} = \frac{1.25V}{0.001A} = 1250\ \Omega
So, a 1.25 kΩ resistor will give you 1 mA of constant current.
2. Wiring:
Connect one end of the 1.25 kΩ resistor to the output (OUT) pin.
Connect the other end of the resistor to the adjust (ADJ) pin.
The ADJ pin will then connect to your load.
The input (IN) pin is connected to your input voltage source (ensure it is higher than the combined load voltage and 1.25V for proper operation).
3. Input Voltage Requirements:
Ensure your input voltage is at least 3V above the load voltage to give the LM317 sufficient headroom to regulate.
Example Setup
Suppose you have a 12V input and a load that varies in resistance. With this setup, the LM317 will regulate the current flowing through the load to 1 mA, regardless of the load’s resistance (as long as the LM317 has enough input voltage to supply 1.25V across the resistor and the load’s voltage drop).
Circuit Diagram
Here's a basic representation:
IN pin: Connected to your input voltage (e.g., 12V).
OUT pin: Connected to one side of the 1.25 kΩ resistor.
The other side of the 1.25 kΩ resistor connects to the ADJ pin.
ADJ pin: Connects to the positive terminal of your load.
The negative terminal of the load connects to ground.
This configuration will create a steady 1 mA current through your load, independent of input voltage fluctuations.
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#130 ·
Guys. I wonder if we are going about this whole thing all wrong.
The goal is "voltrolysis" right? Build up voltage, and have virtually no current right?
Look at the LM317. It is designed to limit current OR voltage. Not both. To limit current, it dynamically adjusts input voltage as needed.
Here is what we are looking for!!
We don't care how much input voltage is being applied to the VIC transfomer. We should care about the input current. Look at this:QuoteTo avoid electrolysis in water even with a high voltage across a small gap, the current density and power dissipation in the water must be kept low enough to prevent the decomposition of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen.
Our objective is to achieve "voltrolysis"—building up a high voltage with minimal current across a water gap to avoid electrolysis. Here’s the strategy:
Here’s a breakdown of the factors:
1. Threshold for Electrolysis
Electrolysis typically begins around 1.23V across the electrodes. Applying 1kV across a 1 mm gap would generate a very strong electric field (1 million volts per meter) that could easily ionize the water if enough current flows. However, electrolysis also depends on current density, so if the current is kept extremely low, it might be possible to avoid significant electrolysis.
2. Dielectric Breakdown and Current Density
At 1kV over 1 mm, water is likely near or past its dielectric breakdown, where it begins to conduct electricity even as a dielectric. At this voltage level, even with minimal current, the strong field may encourage some ionization, so complete avoidance of electrolysis becomes difficult.
3. Estimating Safe Current
To roughly estimate, electrolysis can be minimized if the current density is kept below 0.1 mA/cm² or lower. For a tiny gap like 1 mm, with electrodes in close proximity, you'd ideally want to stay in the microamp range (e.g., 1–10 µA) to minimize ionization effects.
Summary
In practical terms:
Limit current to microamps (µA) at most.
Even with very low current, at 1kV across 1 mm, water will likely experience some ionization due to the strong electric field.
In summary, keeping current below a few microamps might reduce electrolysis effects, but with such a high electric field, some ionization and possible electrolysis could still occur.
Current Limiting with LM317: The LM317 voltage regulator can be set to maintain a constant current output by dynamically adjusting the output voltage. By applying a high input voltage to the LM317, we can define the output current precisely, allowing the LM317 to handle any required voltage adjustments automatically.
Focus on Input Current for the VIC Transformer: Instead of managing the input voltage to the VIC transformer, we should focus on controlling the input current. With the LM317 set to limit current, we can establish the desired electric field across the water cell without exceeding the electrolysis threshold.
Resonance Tuning: By operating the VIC transformer at resonance, the circuit will naturally adjust the voltage to maintain the specified input current. Resonance will maximize the voltage across the water cell, helping achieve the high field strength needed to approach avalanche breakdown across the water gap without significant current flow.
By combining current limiting, high voltage, and resonance, this approach enables precise control over the electric field across the water, which prevents electrolysis by ensuring minimal current flows across the cell, no matter the voltage level. -
#131 · date not recorded
LM334 might be a better option. -
#132 · date not recorded
Let's go another step further. The chokes. The chokes are intended to be mutually opposing. We know they were different resistances, just slightly offset. It just occurred to me why this is (again), but I think this may be more plausible.
We know the current must be miniscule when charging the water, otherwise the current will dissipate into electrolysis. However, when the water is sufficiently charged, we need it to breakdown across the entire cell's gap and the current will need to be high enough at that point to do that. Here is what I believe happens. At the beginning of charging the cell, the voltage is low and the frequency is low. And since the voltage is low, the current on the VIC should also be low as tuned by the chokes, low enough to prevent electrolysis. But as the voltage increases at resonance, so will the current passing through the very slightly misaligned chokes. Eventually, at a high enough voltage field to break the water across the gap, the current through the misalignment will grow enough to trigger the final breakdown and WHOOSH, the gas is produced, the voltage and current drops momentarily and then starts all over again. -
#133 ·
coupled inductors (chokes) = Flyback transformer in discontinuous mode. only 1 coil is operating and then stored energy is discharged to the other coil
https://www.coilcraft.com/en-us/edu/series/a-guide-to-flyback-transformers/ -
#134 ·
I'm pretty sure it's not that simple. There are a number of things going on with the VIC.
1. The choke coils opposing mutual inductance choke current.
2. Although the VIC is essentially a DC circuit, it contains a linear resonant AC pseudo circuit between the chokes and the WFC.
3. The secondary coil's only purpose is to energize the pseudo circuit.
4. The opposing mutually inductive chokes have slightly different inductances, so they don't completely choke all current. They are likely designed this way for 2 reasons:
a) to match the reactance of each side of the WFC to the same resonant frequency
b) to leak current just enough to allow an eventual kick when the voltage is high enough to cause the complete breakdown of the dielectric property of the water in the gap of the WFC but not to allow electrolysis to occur while the voltage field is building up sufficiently for the given gap.
5. The inductance of each choke needs to be tuned to a value similar to the inductance of the secondary coil in order to properly limit any current that the secondary coil may be inducing. It's in this way that the the opposing mutual inductance of the chokes on both sides of the secondary can suppress the current while allowing the voltage to build up. -
#135 · date not recorded
Oh, one more thing occurred to me. I updated the previous post with point 5. -
#136 · date not recorded
the oxygen atom wants free electrons, and they have to come from some where -
#137 · date not recorded
That's rather vague. -
#138 · date not recorded
the oxygen atom wants free electrons, and they have to come from some where
You've mentioned this a couple times. But you don't really elaborate. Hydrogen and oxygen don't combine into water just because they are mixed together. Once separated whether by electrolysis or some other means it would take an ignition source to recombine them. So please elaborate. -
#139 · date not recorded
Oxygen wants free electrons. simple. Oxygen will bond to H atoms by the free electron or turn steel to rust. It's the free electrons in both cases.
nothing new there. we all know this, but Stan Meyer told everyone to block current. He did not show his circuit diagram.
a FBT in discontinuous mode, discharges stored energy. a normal transformer is based on winding ratios and can't do that.
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#140 · date not recorded
Again, what you're saying doesn't really make sense. Hydrogen will only bind to oxygen in gas form after it is ignited to start the reaction, which then creates the water molecule. Otherwise, once separated, they stay separated.
The VIC's chokes are not a FBT. The secondary attempts to energize both chokes simultaneously. If anything the primary and secondary could be FBT. -
#141 · date not recorded
The sec is open circuit, when the pri is active
The pri is switched off (open) and then the sec is active, and the diode is switched on
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#142 ·
The sec is open circuit, when the pri is active
The pri is switched off (open) and then the sec is active, and the diode is switched on
Whatever dude. -
#143 · date not recorded
The FBT discontinuous function is available to anyone online -
#144 · date not recorded
The FBT discontinuous function is available to anyone online
Any yet nobody else has solved Meyer's riddle yet. Hmmmm.... -
#145 ·
I believe there is a possibility that my recent theories are plausible… I just couldn’t have the time to keep testing this year… my business is very time consuming and so I could not give much to testing… hopefully next year I get another chance to spend some time on it when my business get some more grow…
Luckily I’m not a greed Pearson the reason I need to work so much is because since the pandemic Brazil is becoming the most expensive place to live in the world… our currency value is every day lower and so things are getting rapidly expensive
To fix your car or even to eat it’s all becoming really cost prohibitive
Here the socialist government is robbing the country in the excuse of helping people is really sad
Well china seem to be on something as I posted on the other thread…
I believe they used the ultrasound to nail it
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#146 ·
Hey Fabio. Não é só no Brasil. Mesmo aqui na Canada está muito caro pra viver. -
#147 · date not recorded
Muito triste ver o mundo ruindo assim… mas ainda tenho esperança… -
#148 ·
This thread is named "Back to Basics"
a FBT in discontinuous mode has a HV saw tooth output and only 1 coil is active while the other is open circuit.
There is no winding ratio. It is stored energy discharge -
#149 ·
This thread is named "Back to Basics"
a FBT in discontinuous mode has a HV saw tooth output and only 1 coil is active while the other is open circuit.
There is no winding ratio. It is stored energy discharge
I disagree with your assessment. Both chokes have to be energized simultaneously by the secondary coil because the secondary will induce voltage on both of them simultaneously, thereby causing the mutual opposing inductance to choke the current, hence why Meyer called them chokes. The secondary could be operating as a FBT, but not the chokes. Matching the reactance to the wfc and the secondary is critical to make it work.
attachment_17189 attachment_17191 Water_fuel_cell_circuit.png 3b35687d79cf3f585639afa3ff6ff56d.jpg
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#150 · date not recorded
Why does anyone want to block current/electron flow? There needs to be an answer to that.
It would be great if Stan Meyer showed a circuit diagram, but he didn't. It would be madness if he gave away his invention.
a FBT is a choke, in that current passes in 1 direction only. As a manufactured component it is a semi-conductor. Try measuring one.
A diode blocks current.
FBT description is a "coupled Inductor"
Les Banki studied the Japanese patent of the NGK Static Induction Thyristor. Les came up with an equivalent circuit because the NGK SITh was unobtainable.
Les circuit had a 1:1 ratio FBT, coupled Inductor. <That was an interesting addition to study. He did not go into depth of his thoughts.
Les contributed many working circuits for electrolysis and ignition control for Hydrogen motors. They may still be online.
Les Banki was chased off the internet. Why? All he did was present an equivalent circuit diagram 10 years ago.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2578.0