Back to Basics
Started by unknown · · 192 posts · last reply 16 December 2024
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#76 · date not recorded
Yes but if you think about thats not so complicated… it just sounds like
he talk about restricting the amps… to allow voltage take over and do the work…
in a patent he also explain that even a minimal voltage difference would cause current to flow..
so if we get the other way its much simpler… when i mean put water to generate the voltage so it can be discharged
thats why im trying this prototype with fields interacting with water as if it was one turn…
i placed my prototype on my table where i work every day so i can have more motivation for testing whenever i have a time.. but is rare
my phone still down soon i may put some more pics for context
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#77 · date not recorded
I imagine that meyer managed to make the cell resonate in electromagnetic sense of the word and that's how he prevented the current to flow...
There must be a way that water create a backemf in a manner as to prevent current flow behaving like a motor spinning up... ininitialy it need a lot of current but as speed rise it lower... in the motor os because of frequency and backemf
I don't know enough about cavity resonators to understand how would even be possible to maintain such a electromagnetic wave imprisoned on the concentric cell...
I'm willing to get to know more about in the next years to perhaps understand better this modes of resonances in concentric cavities
When we match the impedance of the load with the transmission line current get in phase with voltage when in resonance but that also mean the gain is zero.
In this condition there is no reflection of the load meaning that the current in equals current output
When the load has a mismatch this causes a difference in input and output currents and voltages a impedance transformation as the reflections goe against the originating fields in case of a load with lower impedance than the line and in the oposite case it will have a higher input curren than output
The Beauty of this is that is self adjustable.. since as the load increases impedance it keeps putting more and more power out different of a transformer where the input output impedance transformation is fixed...
I think meyer really took advantage of that to intensify the voltage and minimize current as possible at load side
Perhaps to drive a resonant circuit and be able to have a better way than flyback to get the fields on the cell
I think if we still think the cell from the charge point of view we are not seeing not even the tip of the iceberg
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#78 · date not recorded
There some images in my head of bifilar coils making a second ckt I think it come from what I studied about antennas and balloons trying to understand this stuff about impedance matching
Badicaly
I will describe it for u
It would consist of a secondary with a center tap and it's connected regularly as stan show but each choke has a bifilar partner speaker wire like
This second wire is connected to ground Center tap and to each other... but ate the ends they connect to the cell too
The idea is to have them split in reference to ground and not to each other while on the other side they are shorting with the bifilar coil partner respectively
To inpart a good power to the water the z of this lines must be low
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#79 · date not recorded
To have a lower impedance z of the line it must have a high capacitance how much Is high enought?
My best view of it is that it must be in the few ohms range
That because water need some leakage so is important that the impedance transformation have enough amps to deliver at those high voltage tips ...
If I could buy some copper foil than I would roll with paper and dip in oil
It would Cost a lot to make it very long...
Adding q core can help lower the length but it increase the coupling among this transmission line formed too and it
Also it increase the impedance as each turn will have more inductance
To be able to kick in it must be able to bring the water to have this impedance ending... so If you start with a high impedance line will be much harder or impossible to bring water to the point needed maybe only would work on very pure water..
attachment_16984 1697929268242488103143288025165.jpg
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#80 ·
Seb, I think you are way over-complicating it.
The VIC has 5 simple components and 2 simple functions.
The components of the first function (resonant circuit) are:
3x coils (inductive value)
1x diode
1x water capacitor
At resonance, when the circuit is purely resistive, the components of the second function are:
3x coils (resistive value)
1x diode
1x water resistor
Consider how these work when impedance matched.
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#81 ·
Ronie says the thing was drived like an antenna
An antenna has basicaly two parts
A ground plane and the antenna itself
If the ground was around the antenna it would not emit
Actually become a very low impedance... if you calculate based on the diameters and the dielectric value of water it gives a low value like 3
So it does not matter how pure the water is it will behave like if indeed had 3 or less ohms
If we want to place 1500 volts we need a discharge capable of 500 amps surge
A manner to increase water cell impedance is to increase its linear inductance!!! Remember that... adding a core to the cell directly change its impedance! Raise it a lot
What I'm trying to point is that when we want a impedance transformation the impedance of the load must be higher than the impedance transformer otherwise is like want to ligh a 220v h 1kw bulb with a 50w transformer
Most the voltage drop will be on the transformer and lost as heat... the bulb may not even get red hot
That's what I'm talking about kick in
The real complicated part is that this impedance transformation is frequency dependent and without knowing the water frequency vs ppm will be hard to get there....
Another reason to get it low as possible impedance is that we want to apply a lower voltage and according to stan it must step up this way more current can flow allowing it to resonate easier...
The objective is to have a 200v transformer output that if connected to this chokes will burn the 200v bulb when connected thru it
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#82 ·
With a 220v bulb example how low z would need go to burn it
Let's say it burn with 250v 2kw of power that is 8amps
So if we are applying the correct frequency for the impedance transformation it would require a impedance of 27 ,5 ohms
So even applying 220v it will consume 8 amps and burn the lamp
This is just an example of how the transmission line can transform the impedance
The interesting about impedance calculator is that if the diameter is equal to the distance the impedance is zero...
I believe is because it become like a short So to increase impedance we need small separation
The separation between the wires tells the impedance they will have...
My best guess as I said to reduce the length we could increase the capacitance of the line and capacitance accordingly... this would have the effect to reduce the length required for the frequency used
How to increase cell impedance? Ferrite
Pot core
The cell in this case is like the continuation of the wire...
To get the results of what is happening I believe the only way is getting the readings of current input vs output of the coils with analog isolated meters... it will affect impedance but anyway is the only possible manner to read current transformation specialy if load is not a resistor
The voltages also can be compared on input and output using an isolated probe on the end side for example
If we manage to make a transmission line with 3ohms or so with enough meters to resonate at low frequency than we gona see some nice action...
Otherwise I could be wrong in this analysis and the cells were referential to one or two isolated grounds inside the water bath maybe outside the cell making is impedance higher perhaps
But anyways the lower is the impedance of the tl the higher will be the power it can deliver to a load...
The power is not limited to the input impedance vs the input voltage in this little thing because of the reflections
And that's why I'm saying if the impedance of the load is too low vs the impedance of the line the line will not be able to do much with the load since the power is limited
The current input will be reduced by the reflections
You see?
To get the power to real kick in the impedance must lower than the load
Anyway those are only thoughts and words...
https://www.mantaro.com/resources/impedance-calculator.htm
This is a calculator you can take a look
To find the z of the chokes we just need some experiments with different values of resistors
And reverse engineering it measuring the input current vs output current and hitting with 1/4 wave length
Ah dip the coil in a liquid will decrease the impedance
And if is pure water it reduces more!
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#83 ·
And that's why I'm saying if the impedance of the load is too low vs the impedance of the line the line will not be able to do much with the load since the power is limited
At resonance, the impedance of the circuit becomes purely resistive, and its value equals the resistance in the circuit. This results in the circuit being in a state of minimum impedance.
This is why impedance matching the water's resistivity to your coils is so important in order to maximize power transfer and minimize current flow through the WFC.
The water needs to be able to resist normal electrolysis by having an impedance just greater than or equal to the power source.
If the water impedance is slightly higher, then you can properly tune the choke coils to match resonance to the distinctively different capacitances of both sides of the water cell, due to differences in the cylindrical geometry, which results in the chokes having slightly different resistances. This may also make up for the slight impedance difference between the water and the secondary.
That was what I already said here. -
#84 ·
Yes it seems our analysis are aligned!
The thing is just that I believe the resistance only function is to limit the power in that case and not really have much to do with the impedance transformation.. those are only losses... and maybe may make the operation frequency little wider
As I tried to explain in the case the impedance of the cell Is higher than the line impedance the reflections will lead to an ever increasing power demand so the resistance limits how much power is possible to be feed...
Playing with the calculator it seems that to get a low impedance the wires must be as close as possible to each other…
a 1mm with 0.01 distance give 10ohms .. .still higher than water cell
however if you dive the coil in a very very pure water perhaps the impedance can be brought down to 3!!
this water need to be pure and the coating must be water resistance or wont last long…
also putting in oil will bring it down but not near as much as water would
having cables runing under water for comunication was big problem in the past because of this…
now it come to how we effectively bring the impedance up of a tube cell so we can apply like 10 amps and have 1500 volts across it ?
well for the part of the impedance is possible only if we somehow make the cell to fit inside a iron core or ferrite and feed from as a load from each side
this can increase the pulse delay 10ths of times and also its impedance…
all is needed is to add magnetic material to it!
this will bring the impedance of the cell maybe up to the 130 ohms range!!!!! much much better than 3 ohm!!! anything will be better than those 3 ohms…
that impedance change of the water cell may be easily confirmable!!! it may be the restoring force needed…
i still think that my experiment to find the water resonance vs ppm is relevant because probably that will be the best frequency to tune…
i have a some of 25x25mm I cores i may be able to put 6 around a cell and form a kind of square pot core..
inside the inner electrode there could also be some ferrite…
another solution would be to use some steel core for toroids and role around the cell… the pemeability is smaller than ferrite but the saturation much higher…
or maybe a set of toroidal magnets thin enough so they can be pressed agains each other with reverse polarities as to force some fields into water
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#85 ·
The whole point having a matched impedance is to be able to keep the thing under control …. for that we have the gating
the returning mention of meyer to the resistance and using a resistive wire may be related to being able to control this reflections but it can be perfectly done adding a resistor externally to tune for the impedance such as to get it more under control… the fact that he needs a resistor is another thing that indicates that the line impedance is smaller than the cell!!!
so some mismatch is desirable if as we discussed the z is lower than loads..
I revisited the tech brief looking for ppm and stan clearly states he uses rain or natural water from 1ppm distilled 4ppm rain and 20ppm natural water… city water goes from 78 on summer to 150 on winter here in São Paulo due to water treatment i guess
So the cell will not be a small resistance at least … but will still be a small impedance if we don’t manage to increase its inductance somehow..
today i learned more about skin effect and why hollow conductors are often used for antenas.. i wonder if with an iron core the antena reception or transmission would get improved… somehow the linear inductance would change… or would only it give a different impedance?
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#86 ·
I'm not sure I understand why you refer to the water cell as having an inductance. Since the water cell is either a resistor or a capacitor, neither of these have an inductive property. -
#87 ·
The cell is a coaxial capacitor
A coax, a parallel plate or a wire length will have inductance
Normaly is a factor of 1 ur but when you add iron goes to 100 and ferrite can go upper
I'm talking about it because impedance is calculate as the ratio of inductance and capacitance per unity length
So like a coaxial cable have a characteristic impedance when we plug the water cell sizes and water dielectric value you get the impedance
Now If we add iron or ferrite to a turn of wire it will increase its inductance
What I'm saying is that the way to raise the cell impedance is to give the cell an inductive property!!!
I calculated it to be around 2.7 ohms
But if we add some crazy high ur ferrite it can go very much higher than that!
I wanted to point about this because is not really obvious
I took years to understand in this way I'm explaining to you..
I think on the cell all is needed to increase the impedance is feed one electrode from bottom and the other from up like the patent shows.. having a core around it
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#88 ·
I'm pretty sure Ronnie did not do this... -
#89 ·
I was In his team and he never showed anything not even a bubble I see so I cannot talk for him... I just thankful for what I learn building my cell with their drawings and for the boards and everything ... I don't forget anything.. what I'm saying is that when I asked to see more I was silenced somewhat so I got away..
Luckly I kept studying..
Meyer was a genius If he hidden all in this don't you agree?
I assume aways that I can be wrong that's maybe why I lack some motivation nowadays experiments all ideas I have but this will certainly get a try
I'm going to place some cores around water cell and give it a try -
#90 ·
I don't know if you remember but In those old plans for building a water cell there was one that had a toroid placed above the tubes cell ... something I assume that I never tried at the time not up to now!
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#91 · date not recorded
https://youtu.be/x7r42hEmFrU?feature=shared
When I made this video years ago, I was using a circuit that was similar to the VIC, but without the chokes. It has only just occurred to me now that this is what I am now describing with the secondary resistance being less than the water. The secondary that was being used for this had multiple wire stands in parallel of 24 gauge wire of only 100 turns (resulting in very low impedance), 1:1 ratio with the primary. But you see the result? I was able to put a charge on the cell that stayed after power was turned off and produced gas from that residual charge.
The driving circuit I used was very simple and automatically tuned to the resonant frequency of the secondary and cell. -
#92 · date not recorded
I can tell you about i think was happening with this is that was probably consuming some metal so you was still getting electrons corroding the aligator clips probably…
i got this sometimes until i see things corrosion after a while…
when you run the electricity the metals get deposited from the aligator cilps and as they corrode back after you disconnect they will liberate some gas untill they complete oxide again -
#93 · date not recorded
I really am not sure I can agree with that. This ran for hours afterwards like this. -
#94 · date not recorded
I really am not sure I can agree with that. This ran for hours afterwards like this.
you commented on the video that it was being conditioned for few hours before…
Steve notice this effect too some years ago.. i think we came to that conclusion after discussing a little about it… it takes a long time for the bubbles to stop.. lets see if he can comment he may remember better…
i notice it first time with aligator clips and with other metals that was not pure stainless steel 304 or 316…
if there is anything plated to it is not pure and this ions can attach from one electrode to the other due to the electric force we are applying
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#95 · date not recorded
The pipes are 304 and 316L. You can see the bubbles coming off the alligator clips too. -
#96 · date not recorded
The pipes are 304 and 316L. You can see the bubbles coming off the alligator clips too.
it was probably consuming the aligator clips! i would think of that.. -
#97 · date not recorded
Well, my new setup uses 316 wire connected directly to the cell. We shall see.
Personally, however, that doesn't make sense to me. The gas flow is too substancial, like there is still an electric force acting on it. -
#98 · date not recorded
Well, my new setup uses 316 wire connected directly to the cell. We shall see.
if there is no different metals exposed to the water you will be able to see this difference probably…
there was for me a eureka moment when i discovered that aluminum would give 1v with copper and some amps .. and with that i understood that there is this chemical oxidation potential of the metals and so different metals cause a voltage and if they are in electric contact and with water they will be able to discharge!!
One thing you must remember also is that when you “conditioning” your cell your certainly transfering ions from one electrode to the other specialy above few volts… since stainless steel is a composition of metals the one with lower strength will go to the other electrode…. and the other electrode also is going to oxide to some extent so you may expect a voltage after conditioning for say… if you short them you may see this bubbles for for a while i guess too.. but will be much less i guess than with the aligator imersed…
my new cell i used some electroplating to solder the copper to the 304 material… i electroplated the tip of the electrode so i could solder with easy… wasnt easy to electroplate thought hahah
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#99 · date not recorded
Why not use solder designed for stainless steel? That's what I did. -
#100 · date not recorded
Why not use solder designed for stainless steel? That's what I did.
i wanted to solder a 12awg… here to ask some one to do it with silver would be expensive… i tried and could not get it soldered my self… so i decided the plating would be a easy try … not so easy but i could solder with common iron… it was not easy too.. the layer is very thin and detach easy
but in the end i made 4 and made the cell…
all i used was some batery acid and old copper coils