Donaldwfc

Dynodon, were there any spacers between the tubes?

41 min

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/bbctooclosetothesun1.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/bbctooclosetothesun2.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/bbctooclosetothesun3.png)

he discuses this start up issue in patent 4,389,981

I don't see how you can approximate 20 mA as 955uA

my point is we are missing some piece(s) of information here

Tony, if the primary is pulling 20 mA like he says, then there must be something missing from your analysis?

12v and 20 mA = 0.24 watts
at 1kv, =0.00024 amps though the cell, or 1/4 of a mA

whoa wait a minute, that 1.9 uH, not 1.9 H, i am way off, what's going on here? *thinking brb*

... it's 97 mH without the core, any ideas?

1.95 H and 130 uF will resonate at 10 Hz, could 10 Hz be the gate frequency, while 10,000 Hz is the pulse frequency? in the patent he says 0.5 Hz gate frequency for that vic which sounds like an extremely low gate freq


say my vic has 6 H (2 from each choke and the secondary) then the inductive reactance at 10,000 Hz is

XL = 2piFL
                                                        = 2  x  3.141592653  x  10  kHz  x  6  H
                                                        = 4E+05 ohms                           (to 1 significant digit)
                                                        = 376,991 ohms                          

thats pretty huge, to restrict amps


http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml
measured the cell without water, so just air, and it is 25 picoF
also, calculated with air, it is 25 picoF

calculated with dielectric constant of 80 gives 2100 picoF or 2 nF

to get a calculated 130 uF, it requires a dielectric constant of 5 million

so clearly there is a difference here some how

2 nF and 10kHz gives 126 mH for res

does anyone else have some measurements and calculations to compare?

assuming 2nF is in the right ballpark, and 2000 turns of 30 gage is in the right ballpark, and i get 97 mH without a core, and Stans core was tiny, then maybe my core provides too much increase in inductance, and with a smaller core i might be closer to the 126 mH value compared to 97 mH with air-core

so maybe, the numbers work, it's just knowing which numbers to work with 

thanks for that pic, i have seen it before when you posted it in a different topic, i was hoping that you might have one if the inside of it to help complete the picture a bit more, thanks though

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/323vicinductance.png)

yea I was thinking, ran that calculation too, and then decided to measure my vic again, that i made based on this design, the coils are about 2000 turns of 30 gage on a flyback core and the inductance comes out in the perfect range

this coil, i haven't had luck pulsing it properly, maybe i will rewind the primary with 30 gage too, and then try when i get my pulsing circuit sorted out...

still thinking of making a new vic with the electrical steel, even closer to stans, the coils on this vic are not identical, and i could have taken much more care in winding them so they would be the same, the inductance on the other coils is a bit lower

Don do you have a picture of the other board this connects too?

i don't think the choke was used to extract electrons, he would have a different resistor/light bulb or circuit to do that, not the same as resistive chokes, that is just to add more resistance along side the chokes impedance

in the injector system he replaces the EEC with positively ionized air... he does the EEC on the air first, then when the water is mixed with the air, and split, the air steals the electrons from the water... a neat trick to do the same thing a different way

Ancient Mist, read the topic in my projects section on the VIC, i did some experimenting on the 8XA, and will continue to do more, when I get some free time from university.

Your conclusions are on track, in the NZ video he says "if i want to increase hydrogen gas yield all I have to do is increase the size of this coil... someone asks a question ... he says ... I'll just design a new one and wrap more coils to it" ... key word here being "coils", he designs a new bobbin, and adds more coil sections to it, so that capacitance increases with the inductance, and like you said he draws the capacitance in parallel, which is what you get when you have a self resonant coil, when you drive a coil near it's self resonant frequency it's impedance goes to infinity, and the capacitance acts in parallel, and since the choke are there to restrict amps, more inductance means more impedance, and since the chokes are on the same core as the primary, it means they also effect the turns ratio for the step up voltage, so they do BOTH, they increase the voltage, and they increase the amp restriction

about the amp surge in the capacitor, think about what this means, the voltage only means a difference of charge, and for the voltage to be maintained means that the charge difference has to be maintained, so if you get an amp surge, this is like saying that the charge has been quickly neutralized, and it's not all of a sudden sucking a massive amount of electrons out of the coil, so it's taking charge out of the water through ions, and if you get enough ions carrying electrons to the plates then you won't be able to maintain a voltage, so what does this mean from a design perspective? well when you raise the voltage level high enough Stan starts talking about entering the liquid to gas ionization state, and it's about this time that he also introduces the electron extraction circuit, so that when he starts ionizing the water, he is able to, and has to, remove the electrons, or they would neutralize the charge on the plates, so i imagine, when someone gets to this experimental stage, they would notice the effect, and then realize maybe they have extra electrons in the water bath they should try to pull out, and if they are there, they should come out of the water, which solves the problem, as well provides free electricity, and sets you up with destabilized gas atoms which when burned will burn hotter, and release more energy

also, the fact that water is a dielectric is important here, worth reading about too

outlaw, yes you could make the output of the EPG run the cell and then have the gasses run the EPG, after being jump started, and I encourage anyone to try!

some details to be considered is that the frequency of the output of the EPG depends on the number of coils and the speed of the gas, and the strength of the magnetic field, and the speed of the gas depends on the gas flow, and the magnetic field depends on the pressure, and the gas production depends on the voltage, and the resonance depends on the frequency, and all the parameters are interrelated, so to the person who wants to build this I say have fun. Yes it's possible, but one hell of an intricate system.

That Gas core theory is not what Stan was talking about, I mean, what they are doing there is showing two different systems of Stans and mixing them together, and giving them incorrect names, we know exactly what that transformer looks like from the control and driver patent, and they show it as a gas core, which is wrong, Yes, the EPG can be used as a transformer and a VIC, but I wouldn't call it a Gas core, because the gas isn't acting like a core, a core concentrates the magnetic flux, but this EPG, this is different, the gas is itself magnetized, and it's just being moved around, so calling it a gas core is a misunderstanding, it's more like a gas-rotor alternator, where in an alternator the rotor has "field coils" to make a magnetic field, to induce voltage in the stator, where as in the EPG you have the magnetic gas acting like your "field coil" to produce the magnetic field, which is pumped around, to induce a voltage in the pickup coils (stator)

Anyway, good luck to them, it's nice to see them thinking for themselves and actually building things, through this they will learn a lot.

-=-=-

The chokes are part of the secondary, as he says in the control and driver patent, and if you look at the transformer you can see it has 5 coils all on the same core, the meaning of a secondary is a coil on the core that picks up magnetic flux induced by the primary, so anything that is not a primary coil (or input coil) is a secondary coil (or output coil) ... and the "three secondaries" (secondary and two chokes) are in series... there are different ways to think of it, but they all have a voltage induced in them from the core, and they are connected together, electrically and/or magnetically

the diode is used to disconnect the circuit (open circuit) (non-conducting)(diodes only conduct in ONE direction) when the voltage goes negative, to keep it from discharging the capacitor, and to allow the magnetic field from the chokes to collapse and create another pulse, to double the frequency

the resonance is not AC resonance

the ground you are asking about is labeled J in your drawing, Isolated electrical ground, there is no ground symbol in the drawing, it just says it.

one way is with a lathe and metal spinning equipment, metal spinning is an interesting process, you can watch videos of it on youtube

another way, although possibly crude, is to use one of those small SS garden globe ornament balls, the inside sphere is of much smaller diameter

from the picture of stans spherical cell i might guess it was 3" in diameter

i don't think these cells would be worth anything more than as a demo cell and as a learning experience, tube cells are much more practical for an actual application, as evidenced by Stans progress, his finial developments were for modular stackable self contained resonant cavity units, and then water fuel injectors, these two systems are the final business systems

that being said, the learning potential should not be overlooked from studying and experimenting with this design configuration

To get the increased voltage effect from the taper cavity you have to use it as a wave guide, just applying a voltage to it and measuring the voltage at different places with probes is not going to show you the required effect, it's an electromagnetic wave traveling down the cavity. if you are not using it as a wave guide, then the properties of the wave guide will not exist.

EEC was not part of that patent because it's in the other patents.

yea, he says on the radio show, and briefly in his patent, that the ss is a semiconductor that adds to the process, and will be slightly consumed

however, the metal is consumed based on the amount of current flow, extremely low current flow.... 1-2 mA is the kind of situation he is talking about when he says they will last 10000 years

if you use 10-20 amps for electrolysis, that is 10,000 times more electrons ... so you're cell will only last 1 year of steady use, which is fairly accurate if you look at some peoples cells that get all chewed up and corroded from high amp use. you just can't win with electrolysis, it's a self destructive process

Yea I noticed that, but as far as I know they are divide by 10 on the initial frequency from the 555... Maybe someone with more circuits experience than myself can give a better understanding...

Haven't hooked it up yet, still need some parts for the pulsing set up, but i might try hooking it up to just the bridge rectifier and see what it does on 120 hz dc...

the core came out of a fly back, i have a few of them and i used my smallest one, as the closest size to stans coil, the core has a metal clip on it that holds the two halves together. I have broken one or two before, trying to get them out of the fkybacks... sometimes they have glue or varnish on them that makes them hard to take apart

I just pick up one of my half-dozen 10,000 volt furnace ignition transformers, and i may build a jaccobs ladder, or tesla coil with it, and maybe see what it can do to a wfc, if anything at all...

It eliminates the opposing magnetic field problem because on one layer the coils do not move move, just the secondary, then on the next layer the secondary stays still and the coils move, so you never have magnetic fields moving against each other - just the secondary moving relative to the coils, where the coils alternate between north south north south, so yes, it does do exactly as he says and eliminate a lot of problems with the conventional car alternator, and in particular it he designed it to be a "current limiting voltage source" with "power isolation" where a "pulsed input results in a pulsed output" and he even talks about it being used to control a car accelerator.

It's all right there, if you want to read it. This is a rotary vic.