sebosfato

i found that if the waveform meyer used is real there is only two ways of achieving that

one is to directly use resonance and apply it using a full wave bridge rectifier

the second is to rectify with the full wave bridge and filter  it using a capacitor and a coil


here is an example

there is also a tuned choke notice how the doubled frequency is sincronized with the tuned

$ 1 5.0000000000000004e-8 13.097415321081861 39 5 43
r 16 80 64 80 0 0.1
r 432 48 432 160 0 1000
T 64 80 160 128 2 0.002 5 -5.119296001649148 0.6830204695130128 0.99
c 256 128 224 128 0 1.0000000000000001e-7 -67.64292102483705
d 256 80 352 48 1 0.805904783
d 352 160 256 80 1 0.805904783
d 256 128 352 48 1 0.805904783
d 352 160 256 128 1 0.805904783
c 464 48 464 160 0 1e-9 611.9014472755616
w 464 160 432 160 0
w 464 48 432 48 0
v 16 128 16 80 0 2 5000 100 0 0 0.5
w 64 128 32 128 0
w 32 128 16 128 0
w 160 80 256 80 0
g 464 272 464 304 0
c 464 272 464 160 0 1e-10 -5382.877015599755
l 352 160 352 112 0 0.01 -0.6830201266465822
w 352 48 432 48 0
c 352 48 352 112 0 1e-8 612.5005192834187
w 384 112 432 160 0
r 384 112 352 112 0 1
d 240 208 352 256 1 0.805904783
g 352 256 352 288 0
T 160 128 208 192 4 0.01 26 0.6830204695130131 0.021215383748344595 0.99
w 224 128 160 192 0
w 208 128 208 48 0
w 208 48 352 48 0
g 208 192 208 208 0
o 1 64 0 4354 1115.1179482111302 0.0001 0 2 1 3
o 1 64 0 12553 0.0001 0.6742331271812282 1 2 1 3
o 16 64 0 12298 13863.500997639552 0.0001 1 2 16 3
o 11 64 1 29443 0.0001 0.0001 2 1 574.3642737697833
o 16 64 0 4099 40960 0.1 3 2 16 3

matching the impedance is just a matter of identifying the resistance of the cell to real dc and apply the same reactances for inductor and capacitor the resistance can be zero if you want zero loss .. 

on this second drawing i split it into 3 parts

one is the input transformer creating the resonance between the c1 and chokes but sending unidirectional voltage to water

the second part is the chokes c2 protect the diodes by not allowing high voltage to appear there so the chokes allow dc to be applied while the cell receive the spikes from the other circuit

the third part is the high voltage spike t3 and c3 will send one positive and one negative charging and discharging the capacitor that may be very small to be able to get very high speed discharge

maybe it could or should be impedance matched with the cell to not have power reflections..

the chokes modulates their current to filter the high voltage spike not allowing the spike to reach the diodes and if it reach the c2 is there to limit the voltage rise ... a tvs could be there to protect the bridge too but a capacitor may be better i imagine a 100nf 1kv is ok 

for the c1 maybe 10nf is enough if water is very pure .,, 

Yeas thats the idea i guess....

if we get a transformer with one coil bigger than the other and connect the smaller in series and bigger in parallel with the cell both with the dot convention on the cell side... and apply a voltage to it :

the smaller coil will apply a emf on the bigger coil that is already receiving a voltage but will be able to let amps flow thru it so i imagine working like an alternative path to the amps to flow instead of the high voltage secondary

see the picture

when the pulse collapse t2 will send a very high negative pulse to the water in one my theories it will break the covalent bound by inducing the resonance in the molecule.. 

if the water is not pure enough it wont have a spike like effect... the water must be pure to be able to use a coil to discharge high voltage across it... (fact)

if we want to get high voltage on low resistance a capacitor will have much more impact

today i would improve this setup with new knowledge i have

i would sand paper the outside of the acrylic cup and add a coat of pencil graphite this allow for increasing 3 fold the capacitance...

the acrylic must be as thin as possible.. would be even better polycarbonate or polipropilene PP

even glass should work and probably would be thinner and more heat resistant in case of some arching .,.. i would not skip the sanding paper part with the glass either

a becker could work very well

is necessary to understand the properties of the glass material as some will be low in resistance

something like 10cm diameter should work nice

i think the purer is the water the higher will be the chance to get it ionized as its splited  but i can be wrong

we know that if we place one test charge inside a conductor it will necessaryly be attracted to the conductor and goes toward it unless its in a equilibrium situation

for example if we charge the inside of the water bath positive the inner wall of the bath capacitor (glass) will be positive so it would reppel positive charges it would attract only if the charges were negative... but as the water is somewhat a conductor the positive charges wont be able to stay still too...

i had a setup that were simply a pair of concentric tubes that were into a acrylic cup having a copper foil on the outside of the acrylic cup

than i had if i remember well a high voltage coil connected to the foil and on the other side i had two diodes one connected to the inner electrode and the other to the outer

the result was bubbles of gas being generated that when arrived the surface of water it was clearly moved toward the cup sides.... meaning it was indeed charged,,,

another way that worked was to have one diode connected to the central electrode and a coil conneted from the foil to the outer electrode

basically this circuit alowed to use the acrylic as a capacitor being the water the other side of the capacitor

the water was very pure on this tests so the gas output was very small but clearly charged

the temperature rising setup can be arranged with a nodemcu esp8266 or esp32 using a db18s20 temperature sensor and simple program for display it on a web interface

also the ammeters and other stuf can be build around those chips too allowing to display all info on the same place

in this case for the ecc i would go for having a ammeter for the hv

one ammeter  for the ionization current

a voltage metter for the gas current

the temperature rise metter

is already 4 meters with only a 2 dollar chip

the greatest problem is the torch and steady gas production

in my mere opinion we could use a simple full wave bridge design with low voltage to achieve the gas output required for testing ... must be isolated and properly protected as we are applying high voltage from elsewhere

the best way to do it is using a pair of mutual chokes and some capacitors at the input sides of the chokes connected to ground this is where one ammeter goes

the high voltage is to be applied straight to the cell and ground 

The question is: Does the EEC bring something. If it does, what does it bring.
Can i measure or see it?

It appear to me that what it bring from the electronic point of view is a current in the high voltage line (referenced to ground) ... this current can be measured and compared with a test current of the neutralization of the gas

for example if we hold the cell at 40kv dc using one transformer we add a ammeter to this transformer connection to ground

on the gas output we add a metal tube to allow the gas pass thru it and discharge its charge on it ... if we ground this tube and add other ammeter there is possible to evaluate if there is ionized gas output and its polarity

the greater is the gas production the greater should be the current as it will be bringing charge with it as its bubbles  breaks water surface tension

this is the first step to get on the eec

the next step would be to improove this ionization current but first we need to get any current to start with to know that we are on the right way

is important to have the amp metters that read rms values not peak otherwise wont be a good reading

also it would be great to connect to the oscilloscope and compare the waveforms since the gas ionization output theoretically will look more like dc while the trasnformer will have a pulsing caracteristics

than is possible to add a resistor on the gas side and see what voltage is possible to develop in it with such a discharge

for example we add a resistor of 10kohm if the current was 1ma it should result in 10v on the resistor

at a certain higher resistor value it wont be able to discharge the gas fully or even partially


the only way i see possible to determine the gas quality improvement would be a setup where the gas can be directed to a torch and to heat some water cup over it while measuring the temperature rise of the water relative to time it will be possible to determine weather the ionization is helping or not improve to some extent the gas quality

its not an easy task since the current must be enough to boil the electrons out


the way xray tubes do is to use chokes or a transformer for the filament current

so basically we need some current to flow

we need that when the current is passing thru the filament it get repelled by it!

we need high voltage positive on cell bath side to take electrons out of it

and at the same time is necessary to revert the polarity to pull electrons out of the filament


it requires a transformer secondary wired to a diode in series with this diode will be the amp consuming device ( a tube diode possibly with a small capacitor in parallel with it ) after it go the cell anode and after the cell a coil that close the circuit with the secondary

at this circuit point i added a capacitor and a diode connected to ground to allow the cell potential to be positive referent to ground during the pulse but when the voltage reverses the capacitor will allow enough current to just revert the polarity of the cell and amp consuming device to boil electrons out of it more easily when the polarity of the cell is negative it will repel electrons allowing to take them out of it

Hello mr

I have never tried the ecc after i have learned some physics... maybe now its just time as its much clearer to me

yesterday i wrote here but it went wrong on server

when we charge the water say positively it will give electrons to the high voltage we are applying and those electrons will go to ground if we dont allow them to go back to water (one wire)

the higher is the voltage and the gas flow the greater will be the high voltage current or ionization current so is best to have voltage levels and frequency for each ionization step

the ionization may be achieved by high voltage discharge on water and its electron extraction depends on the high voltage potential the cell is referent to ground

another way i see it happening is the electron extraction circuit being a kind of circuit that boils off electrons from the filament passing thru a grounded tube such that the electrons cannot make thru the circuit so ionizing but not consuming as much as power

basically it will form something like a tube diode so electrons will go one way but wont return

Maybe I know why you are getting the gas only when it sparks ..  when it sparks it reduces the impedance and allow current to flow thru the mot coil otherwise the coil holds the current too much ...

sorry to maybe go off topic... but actually i´m trying to think the theory first so we dont have to  keep doing things wrong... of course is just theory and any part could be wrong  however its being so many years thinking about this that it apear to me all glues up
well first think i would look is how precise is my frequency from the pll... i remember it had lot of variance so is not a good to go

i think i will need to design the pll to have a very narrow range to get such needed precision....remember 100THZ well this is sort of the precision we need in phase.. 


nice test Steve... do you have used the same diagram you show on the first page? how is the waveform looking like? its pure water? what is the current going on water?

i have done tests with a spark gap... but only small stream of gas came out at that time we were following those Ronnies ideas.. i think he was kind of on it for real although he didnt help any of us to get there hopefully i took the time to understand what they teach me and i´m thankful  for them to have share some with me that lead me to get some conclusions...

Is good to know you are working on it my friends.

i´m here in brasil still struggling to pay my bills, and dealing with my dad with terminal cancer.. i´m very sorry to not being able to keep doing tests lately..

I´m trying to read and catching up this post info...

 my later theories some of i still want to test tell me one thing

1 meyer didnt used the coils to restrict the amps they were there for create the voltage  intensification by collapse.. when a coil collapse unrestrictedly all the energy is dumped at once
2 he used barium titanate to get the at least one of his electrodes coated.. or he had a external capacitor for it very high dielectric with high resistance...
3  his cell was very well insulated from ground allowing to grow high voltage potential relative to ground

In my mere opinion what meyer did was indeed like what he said he charged the cell with dc but giving a high voltage periodic reverse pulse after each positive pulse.. this pulses must cause the resonance on the water molecule making the electrons to momentarily rearrange the molecule to a lower energy state.. meyer says he basicaly disrupt the equilibrium of the water molecule by not having enough electrons...
well what i can tell you about this is that is not possible to extract electrons from there unless some gas is going out missing electrons... this tells us is not only a electronic but also a dynamic system.. pretty much like the faraday thunderstorm generator
imagine this sequence positive allign the molecule oxygen near the electrode and reverse negative pulse shake its electrons...
to be able to extract any electrons from the water the electrons must be at a potential where they are reppeled from the bath so it need to be at negative high voltage... this would make the electrons go down the line..

i believe meyer have used 99% duty cycle and air core instead of 50% somehow this allow for the increase in the voltage according to the techbrieth

today we get a new power tool that i´m going to be using soon

i started to learn how to use arduinos and esp´8266 and esp 32 chips .. it seems to me that this chips are going to allow us all to have the kind of system for tests i have here and that cost toooooo much... talking about labview..

in my opinion the metters we are going to create will be even faster and powerfull besides cheap ..

there are dozens of modules ready to use for signals like voltage current temperature pressure  flow, water level etc

is possible to plot graphs and even keep all the results on a data base
we just need to learn how

well this is a huge step for us because knowing how many watts are you using is the very basic to work with...

there are some watt metters too that can be very cheap and work  as a comparison at the inputs

but is important to monitor currents, voltages, frequencies, number of pulses, dutycycle, and be able to plot all this over a flow measurement
 

if its dc motor with brushes you could pulse in and the voltage generated would be in reverse direction so current cant flow since the source is a block for it... thinking about this a lot lately and how meyer could have used it..

this rule helps identifying where is the directions of magnetic field and force  relative to current or vice versa all 3 are perpendicular to each other...

so magnetic field is in one direction current crossing the magnetic field perpendicularly will create a force... if the current is parallel to the magnetic field theres is going to be a force too though but that is not the idea here...

So this force is the same as electromotive force that is applied as current or can be obtained...

so a conductor crossing a field will generate a voltage this voltage counter act the applied voltage is known as back emf This counter voltage actually create a kind of breaking  or repel force to the movement so it consume power....

work is force over distance 

this is how generators transformer and motors work...  in the case of transformers if works because the magnetic field changing is equivalent to the change in magnetic field of the conductor aproaching a magnet or traveling along a field...  thar is analysed by the flux density etc

I did some tests in this direction few years ago..  i was hoping that the cells were going to create a current that would sustain...

did you tried morephases it was going to be my next step than at the time but i had many theories to go and test less than 10_% of them ...

i would get a acrylic cup sand it inside and outside and apply some graphite from a pencil like on the outside and than place an aluminum foil on outside...

you will see a much more pronounced effect and more

you will see the gas bubbles flying around the top really moving...  at the time i pulse it with a step up transformer than i had this two diodes on both sides of the transformer going to two coils and connecting coils to the cell.. one side of the secondary was connected to the foil on the outside...

today i would connect a center tap of the secondary and see what happen...

i was very busy trying to develop a medical device for this covid 19 emergency and i came up with a very nice monitor of pressure flow and volume that might be use full for our experiments and is way cheap to build... i will give all the code for it open source on my google drive here for you guys .. the whole pulmonary ventilator is almost ready but the code is already useable... just need few tweeks and is done.. it just need a powersupply, sensors, a esp32 controler and a nextion screen... it can also command servos to control flow, open close etc... hope you enjoy =D

im trying to put things together to do some test too soon... this project will end soon with goodnew i hope!

My recent thoughts are that we lost too much time to restrict something we should be pushing really hard before start thinking about restricting anything… I will be back to this soon… luckily there will always be time to make our thinking cook.

How many watts you succeeded to apply to the cell?

I have the feeling that I never  applied enough power to see the reaction happen!

Horvaths patent has heat dissipation

I believe to get to it we need to apply something that will instantly boil the water!!!

What i mean is like a rolling foil leving a spiral Chanel  within the electrodes

Resistances can be increased the more turns you put in

The old water car plans used this patent as a base… they use a toroidal coil over the cell pulsing in the plans

Very interesting that saint Clair says it can distort space time with this configuration

He restricted but according to himself he had what he called a leakage current … and the output gas was a geometric progression of the current input! Meaning more than one conversion per electron used..