Understanding the VIC
Started by unknown · · 75 posts · last reply 16 December 2011
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#1 ·
I think the VIC is the biggest obstacle in understanding Meyers work.
In this post I hope all will contribute their ideas and thoughts of how it works.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/VICmatricckt.png)
The research I have done leads me to believe that the VIC chokes form parallel resonant tank circuits.
In the diagram above you can see the drawing shows the equivalent circuit of each choke coil.
There is a capacitor, and inductor, and resistance which forms a parallel RLC circuit.
Current Limiting: If the chokes oscillate at their self resonant frequency they are equivalent to a parallel tank circuit. At resonance the parallel tank circuit has a nearly infinite impedance which limits current to almost zero.
Ref: http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34d.htm
Voltage Enhancement: The voltage from the VIC does not come from it's turns ratio. The turns ratio steps up the voltage a little, but not as much as what the VIC outputs.
I believe this is where the square wave pulsing of the VIC comes into play. The square wave provides a very fast change in the circuits line current(note that in the circuit there is the alternating current of the chokes, but there is also a line current.) The line current is the current that flows through the whole circuit. The line current is very small, and it is the current which flows across the water cap.
Ref: http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34e.htm
When the square wave ends the current falls rapidly and the inductors (Secondary, L1, and L2) induce a voltage which can be calculated using the formula V=Lxdi/dt.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/2.html
Voltage Enhancement The other way I think the VIC might be getting it's high voltage from is the tank circuits high circulating current
and the impedance of the parallel tanks componnets. V=I x Z. This is basic ohms law, Voltage = Current times Impedance.
The VIC Output waveform I have to thank TonyW for this as he helped me understand that the VIC outputs AC, not DC. There are 2 AC waves 180 degrees apart which combine to double the output frequency. The diode prevents the secondary coil from shorting, but the AC generated by the chokes (at resonance) still reflects to the water capacitor.
I modeled the VIC matrix circuit above on multisim and at resonance I got 2 AC waves (1 at each plate) which were 180 degrees out of phase. I also got the pulse doubling effect. Unfortunately I did not save the design and when I made changes to it I could not get the simulation to work appropriatel. I have been trying to get it up and running again but have had no luck. If I do I will post it...I think it's just showing that this circuit will not perform the intended output unless it's exactly at resonance. -
#2 ·
Ok everyone, now it's your turn to explain your ideas and thoughts of what the VIC is doing? -
#3 ·
Sounds right to me sir
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#4 · date not recorded
The VIC should work how SM explained it!
It's a complete resonance wfc system, it consist of different (matched) parts working together.
I think the main reason (for the resonance wfc system) is that none has re-discovered the right VIC transformer core material to really have and seen the amp-restriction due to the chokes (core aiding flux) and also connected an isolated (delrin cavity) wfc to one VIC transformer to see this.
If amp-restriction is not occurring, you can not separate (in four stages) the water molecule efficient with voltage. What SM called "the Water Polarization Process".
Only isolated wfc should work because we don't want voltage fluctuation (leakage) between the exciters (what SM explains). It should be stable enough to maintain resonance (restrict amps). Remember: Voltage Preforms Work (not my words)
The VIC is matched to a wfc cavity (capacitance) and for a known type of water used in it. (resonance frequency for resonant choke to choke/restrict amps)
And big wfc tubes should be banned!!! Smaller is better! Lower capacitance, smaller coils, higher voltage and higher frequency etc.
I recommend everyone to use the specs SM has given in his patents and/or use the specs from Dynodon for the wfc cavity and the VIC transformer.
But hey, if someone want to use amps, go ahead.
(current destroys)
Br,
Webmug
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#5 · date not recorded
Sounds right on to me guys,
There is one part I'd like to add that hasn't been talked about to much.
Resonant action, this is shown in patents when explaining the wiper arm on the bottom choke. He said it was four resonant action tuning. For a long time I thought this was for tuning into circuit resoance but I found out that my Water cap resonates with the top inductor. Tony and Don have posted similar findings. It wasn't till the sales manual was release that Stan explained that resonant action was the movement of atom\ions in the water cap. This is way I think his chokes were different sizes. He never came out and said they were the same but said things like they were similar length.
So, with the movement of ions that we are creating we could have colison between them and a transfer of electrons.
Stan also states in the sales manual that colision is part of the process -
#6 · date not recorded
hey Dave, resonant action is also explained in the Voltage Control patent (ending with 661)
Here is a collection of statements from that patent.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture41-2.png) -
#7 · date not recorded
But, can resonant action be achieved with a typical submerged cell, or is there some design factors involved to make it work as described? Could there be a gap tolerance where the resonant action cannot propagate due to having too wide of a gap? Do normal injectors have a resonant frequency? Pulse jet? -
#8 · date not recorded
I take the guess that th distance between the plates / tubes equals a frequency that at resonance the vic/choke circuit matches? So is there a calculation to determine gap distance and is there a desired frequency to aim for in determining the gap? and another thought, does the length/height of the tubes / plates affect the frequency aimed for in setting the gap? -
#9 · date not recorded
The frequency matched to the gap does have to be a full wavelength frequency, it can be a 3/4 wave, 1/2 wave, 1/4 wave, etc.. Also during current restriction you will not have electrons from the coils crossing the plates, but you will have electrons from the SS plates them self crossing through the water and this will aid in the water splitting. Now as far as the water is concerned, Stan states that water has a dielectric value of approx. 78. This means that 78% of the water bath is non-conductive and the remaining 22% is conductive. Based on tests that I have conducted does prove this to be true. I wont go into full details, but I will tell you this, Stan says he wanted to "tune" into the dielectric properties of water (non-conductive 78%), so basically he wanted to nullify the 22% conductive property of the water bath. Now you have to ask yourself how you can do this!
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#10 · date not recorded
Yeah I would think that all those things would apply. It couldnt just be one frequency right? I mean the electronics scan and find resonance in the range they were designed for so it couldn't be. Maybe resonant action can happen in a rang of frequencies. With that said would it not also depend on the voltage force being applied? -
#11 · date not recorded
The frequency can be harmonics of the frequency used to split the water molecule. Like say if the LC circuit resonates at 5kHz, this would be like the 7th Harmonic of 320kHz.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Waves_in_Box.svg/220px-Waves_in_Box.svg.png)
Yea the voltage force is what causes the electrons from the SS material to be pulled off the surface and also splitting the water. To understand the cell you first need to understand antennas, waveguides and electromagnetism. Once you research this you will see that the the waveguide has to match the coil. Just like the way a radio operates. -
#12 ·
Well, it's going to be some time before I fully understand all of that. Lots of books to read
Thanks Don for pointing me towards that patents, I haven't read that one in a long long time. -
#13 ·
:-XDave, you mentioned resonant action earlier.
I think the collision is a major part of all of meyers work, and the resonant action is basically a
threshold point at which dissassociation goes geometrial. Of course the resonant
action does not occur at a specific voltage, it's dependant on a number of factors like
voltage, frequency, leakage current, plate gap etc.
I think it's collision as well as the snapping action which cause disassociation.
That's why hvdc does not produce a lot of gas. Hydrocars posted a while back
about having successfully putting hvdc across water and only producing
small amounts of gas. -
#14 ·
does that mean we want resonace at 78 ohms in L1 or 78 ohms in L2 or are those just silly questions? -
#15 · date not recorded
during current restriction you will not have electrons from the coils crossing the plates, but you will have electrons from the SS plates them self crossing through the water and this will aid in the water splitting.
You got me thinking... it would seem to me that electrons only pass through the water by being carried with an ion. As in a simple electrolysis experiment, the purer the water, the less ion content = little or no gasses.
I have attached two similar experiments for demonstration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=955HMPXjgnM&feature=related
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#16 · date not recorded
yea when the u get the high voltages across the plates, the high voltages will cause the SS material to release its own electrons into the water and it will aid in the splitting. So the electrons in the water will come from the SS plates and not the circuit itself. -
#17 · date not recorded
In the water the free electrons will also be the smallest particle, having the least mass, which means they will have the greatest velocity to perform collision ionization!
In one of Stephen Meyer's radio interviews he talked about how the electrons spiral around the wire as they move down the wire. The electrons on a positive conductor will spiral one way, and the electrons in a negative conductor will spiral in the opposite way.
Artinvegas said that Stan had theorized there would exist bidirectional vortexes within the cell which would rip the water mol apart.
It seems like the electrons play a bigger role than we thought previously. I guess as long as your not exchanging electrons then you can take advantage of the physical force of collision without using large amounts of power. -
#18 · date not recorded
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/reseft.png)
The diagram above shows that each choke coil performs a different function.
The injector VIC has 2 choke coils even though the injector only has 1 connection which connects to the inner electrode, the outer electrode is grounded through the engine.
Tony, Don, and others have mentioned that the VIC resonance is between the positive choke and the cell, and that the negative choke has no effect on resonance. I mentioned in the first post that resonance is the self resonance of the coils, but I think the cell effects resonance because of the antiresonance phenemenon.
Ref: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_6/5.html
So the question I have for everyone now is, what is the purpose of each choke coil and how are they behaving differently?
Stan explains them as performing different functions in the tech brief.
One thing I think is important here is the diode placement. It prevents the AC from the secondary from reaching the positive choke. -
#19 · date not recorded
when L1 & Cell are in resonance they have "Zero" resistance (XL1 = XCp), but L2 will have a very high resistance to current flow (XL1 = XCp < XL2). -
#20 · date not recorded
Yup, you can't create voltage across the cell without the L2 choke or with one that is to small. Resonate action also is a effect and I would imagine that it has something to do with L2 being a different size. As Tony has pointed out, it would be sending a different frequency to the cell than the L1. Could this cause resonant action? -
#21 ·
So, the L1 choke and cell are a series LC resonant circuit. The resonance creates the high voltage, while the L2 choke limits current?
In a series LC circuit the increased voltage is due to the Q factor which is XL or XC (since both are equal at resonance) divided by R.
If only the L1 choke and cell are in resonance then would the Q factor calculations include the secodary reactance and the L2 choke reactance? -
#22 ·
Hms, that is exactly what I have found from my experiments, L1 is in resonance and L2 is restricting amp flow. We often think of the Wfc as a capacitor but it only functions as a capacitor because of the Vic. I think the high voltage is created elseware in the circuit, not the series resonance, I mean that wouldnt make sense. The L2 choke is really something special. With my first Vic set up I messed around with the inductance of the L2 choke a lot. There seems to be perrameters but I could increase the inductance and voltage would also rise.
Ps Alex petty claims to have a proof of concept set up. It's interesting and it is proof of concept in my opinion. What I don't understand is what the difference is about his set up or even in my own set up. I ordered a lot of testing equipment so hopefully I will be able to show you guys some sound data soon -
#23 ·
That's very interesting.
Especially if the reactance of the secondary and L2 choke are part of the Q calculation. That would mean that thier reactances would increase the voltage magnification of the cirucit, and they would also limit current... -
#24 ·
Ps Alex petty claims to have a proof of concept set up. It's interesting and it is proof of concept in my opinion. What I don't understand is what the difference is about his set up or even in my own set up. I ordered a lot of testing equipment so hopefully I will be able to show you guys some sound data soon
Are you referring to the youtube video where he's using a 9v battery?
If so, I think his setup is doing basic electrolysis due to the cell having a pathway to ground via the transistor/FET. He has no chokes and only a coil in parallel with the cell. You can take a 9v battery and produce just as much HHO, if not more, as he is in the video. -
#25 ·
Tony, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know why but the video was really small, I was under the impression that he was using a Vic set up?