Understanding the VIC
Started by unknown · · 75 posts · last reply 16 December 2011
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#26 ·
Hmmm.
Back to the voltage at the cell....I think I was wrong earlier when I mentioned that the voltage was from the square wave or high circulating current across the choke parallel tank ckts.
In Stan Meyer's control and driver circuit patent he states that the voltage is determined by the turns ratio of the coils. From don's measurements we know the primary coil had 450 turns while the three secondary coils had 3,000 turns each, for a total of 9,000 secondary turns. We also know that the diode used for the WFC VIC was a 600V diode, which is also stated in the control and driver ckts patent.
From the calculations the WFC VIC had a turns ratio of roughly 1:22.5, so 12V in would yield 270V out. Now I want to state that I do think resonance may be occuring between the L1 choke and cell, but that the diode prevents the typical AC series resonance from occuring. I say this because if the typical series resonance were occuring at any frequency the Q factor of the circuit (XL/R) would have to be less than 2.2 (270V X 2.2=600V) or else the diode would be destroyed. Knowing the circuit values we know if typical series resonance was occuring the Q factor would be much higher than 2.2 and the voltage magnification would destroy the diode.
Can anyone with a working replication tell us what voltage they are getting across the cell?
I'm just wondering here because if the VIC is utilizing DC resonant charging then it would be around 540V (not taking losses into account).
So for the longest time I thought the VIC was getting a higher voltage than what the turns ratio provided....Now I think I was wrong all along?
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#27 · date not recorded
Tony, here is the schematic that Alex says he is using -
#28 · date not recorded
yea thats the circuit he has on his website, but if you look in the video he is using a different circuit. This is the circuit he is using in the video.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/A.Petty_Circuit.png) -
#29 · date not recorded
Thanks for clearing that up. I watched it again and saw that schematic at the end. Not a Meyer replication, -
#30 · date not recorded
HMS, in one of Stan's patents he writes about the Sec., L1 & L2, each being wrapped with a ratio of 10:1 compared to the primary. This would make the summation of the coils a 30:1 step-up. I mentioned this back last year, but I guess nobody paid me any attention. Stan says that with 12v input to the primary, you will get 360v at the output of the chokes.
Now, the thing that we all need to understand about the cell is this, the cell will act almost as a dead short with having a resistance around 200 - 250 ohms. What Stan was doing or attempting to do is make the cell act as a true capacitor. It will act as a really bad leaky capacitor, but once you, as Stan says, tune into the dielectric value of water, only then it will act as a real true capacitor! Like I stated earlier in this thread, the water has a dielectric of 78%, which is non-conductive. So at a certain frequency you will nullify the 22% conductivity and tune into the 78% non-conductive part of water and the voltage will rise dramatically with no current leakage! -
#31 ·
Tony, thanks for the insight.
It makes sense, I'll just have to study more about dielectrics to fully comprehend it.
Back on the voltage and turns ratio, It's just very confusing because Stan makes several statements in the TB that would lead me to believe otherwise. I think there are VIC's that got their voltage from the turns raito and others which developed higher voltages than their turns ratio provides....Like the injector VIC, I built one a while back and could not get anywhere close to a high enough turrs ratio to develop 20 or 40kV. -
#32 ·
Yea I built a scaled down version of the (6-1) injector VIC transformer and I was getting over 2kv using a real 1nF capacitor in place of the cell. Well I would connect it to a single tube cell, the voltage would drop into the mV range. This was due to a dead short condition existing in the cell. The inductance measurements of the scaled down VIC transformer's chokes where around 8.88H each fully assembled, but with the outer secondary bobbin removed, they would measure 18H each.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VicCoil_Bobbin_1.jpg)
I'm currently constructing a scaled size model of the 6-1 VIC Transformer for testing. In this one I am using 430 FR SS wire. The chokes measure around 11.7k ohms each.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/S.Meyer_6-1_VIC_Coil.jpg) -
#33 ·
Seems we both realized that the injector VIC has a very high inductance.
When I built mine and connected all the secondary coils series aiding I was reading over 15H. At times my meter would stop reading because it was going over 20H. The 430 wire has some wierd characteristics, it seemed that trying to measure actual inductance caused the inductance to increase. I think this was because the meter pushes current through the coil to measure the inductance, and the current was increasing the inductance of the coils...
I used the 430 wire which used to belong to Stan but I don't think the company that put the coating on it did a very good job because it was peeling off.
I also had a connection break inside the bobbin so I was never able to even test it out.....Really frusterating because I put over 100 hours into it....
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/vicc.jpg)
One thing I really wonder about the VIC injector is how resonance was maintained. Because the inejctors on time was so short there definately is not enough time there to use a PLL to scan for and lock resonance....I'm thinking that is one reason why the high resistance wire was used, to broaden the resonant bandwidth by dampening the circuit. I have only seen a small amount of info in the tech brief about the injector VIC driving circuitry.....
Where did you get your 430 wire from? -
#34 ·
it came from Stan's stuff. The core material also came from Stan's collection. I just need to wrap the secondary so I can test it. -
#35 ·
Tony, from the picture of your full scale VIC it looks like you were able to solder the 430 wire to the posts...How were you able to solder them? That is one big problem I had when building mine which ultimately led to the wire breaking internally.
Also, I'm thinking the Injctor VIC resonance with the injector is over 20kHz, but using electrical steel throws me off, how thick are the electrical steel plates you have?
I used m4 electrical steel for mine but I think it was too thick for the frquencies which would be used.
PS, I have some info on the water fuel injectors from a good source. The center rod was .15", the taper went to .10" and was .5" in length with a gap of .01".....I calculated the estimated capacitance would be at a maximum 350pF. -
#36 ·
The plates are 0.3mm and they should be grain oriented steel. Yea I had some trouble soldering the wire but I ended up wrapping the wire around my terminals and was able to get the solder to hold the wire in place. I guess SS wire doesnt like to be soldered lol.
Yea in Stan's docs he says for the injector setup you would need frequencies up to 50kHz. -
#37 ·
Ok, 50kHz was what I was thinking also but I could not remember for sure...
Yeah that's most likely CRGO (Cold Rolled Grain Oriented) M4 electrical steel. It's the same stuff I used, it's 3mm also. I actually got mine from Don a while back.
So back to what you mentioned about the water's dielectric constant and tuning into it. I'm working to find out about what effect dielectric polarization has on leakage current. Is that what you were getting at about tuning into the water's dielectric?
Also, what turns ratio did you have in your small injector VIC?
Thanks everyone for the input, and sorry for all the questions tony....I'm just trying to get as many opinions and as much info as I can. I think the more we input we get on these forums the more we'll be able to rule out and understand. -
#38 ·
In Stan's papers he says to use M27 for the cores and this also goes for the 5 VIC transformer. So if you can get a ferrite core made, just use M27 laminates for the core.
If I'm right about the polarization, once you tune into the dielectric properties the cell will act just like a polarized capacitor. This is where the 180* phase shift will come into play and you will see the frequency doubling and voltage doubling occurring. What I mean by this is that when the water is polarized and you get the 180* phase shift, each positive voltage pulse from each phase will be seen on the polarized positive side of the cell and you should also see the negative voltage pulses on the other side of the cell. From tests that I have done using my 5 VIC transformer along with a real capacitor and the 180* phase shift, I was able to build up a high voltage potential over over 1.5kv.
If I remember right the scaled down 6-1 coil had a ratio of around 10:1 -
#39 ·
Very interesting.
I was reading in the dealership sales manual earlier about the ions and electrons in the cell increasing the cell voltage beyond the applied voltage.QuoteIn the area of electron deflection, the electrically charged atoms moving towards the water molecules further disrupt the covalent bonding, while at the same time increasing the electrical charges inside the fuel cell during the electrical polarization process. Increasing the number of electrically charged atoms within the fuel cell directly increases the voltage charges within the same cell while the applied voltage pulse frequency potential remains the same...increasing gas yield while power input remains the same.
-Delearship Sales manual Page F7
I tend to wonder if the voltage at each plate is really the same though, since each choke outputs AC there would have to be some kind of coupling between the plates, perhaps polarization causes that so I don't want to discount it.
I tend to think that the polarity of the plates is always opposite but changes with each pulse. The reason why I think this is occuring is because I think it would increase the resonant action (also called compounding).QuoteSimply moving liberated atoms back and forth uniformly through the electrical polarization process in a repetitive manner establishes resonant action in the fuel cell.
-Delearship Sales Manual page F6
I think the above statement is explaining that AC is used to move the atoms back and forth, but as we know Meyer never really stated anything plainly, it's open to interpretation.
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#40 · date not recorded
those statements in the sales manual stuck out to me as well. I did an experiment where I produced hho through electrolysis and then continually pumped it through the cell with my early vic attempt hooked up.
If the cells polarity switched with each pulse, wouldn't that be equivalent to the steam resonator? In the sales manual Stan states that there is both a static and alternating field being applied to the cell. I don't understand how that one would work? -
#41 · date not recorded
what voltages are you guys achieving across the water cell ? -
#42 · date not recorded
If the cells polarity switched with each pulse, wouldn't that be equivalent to the steam resonator? In the sales manual Stan states that there is both a static and alternating field being applied to the cell. I don't understand how that one would work?
Yes, I was just about to point that out. In the Steam Resonator circuit, the gate pulses make the transistor switch the polarity on the plate, much like a H-bridge circuit. The voltage acts much like AC, but pulsed in a way to limit current. As you can test with AC voltage, it will not fracture the water but it will heat it up pretty fast. With tests that I have done with 120vac, I was able to super heat the water from room temp. to over 220 degrees in a matter of minutes. Here is a scope shot of what the output of the Steam Resonator pulses should look like.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/steam_resonator_pulse.jpg) -
#43 · date not recorded
Oh wow, that's awesome.
Yeah the polarity switching is something I was really questioning myself over for that very reason.
What I want to understand now though is why the WFC does not generate heat when there is collision occuring,
How exactly does that differ from the WFC? -
#44 · date not recorded
it came from Stan's stuff. The core material also came from Stan's collection. I just need to wrap the secondary so I can test it.
So does this mean that you know someone inside Quad City Innovate? -
#45 · date not recorded
no, lol...but one of my guys has been in contact with Chris @ Quad City Innovations. I got the bobbin, SS wire and core from John Bostick for testing. I'm pretty sure he told me it came from Stan's stuff, but of course you should be able to confirm this. -
#46 · date not recorded
Well that's cool! I thought when you said it came from Stans stuff you got it from Don. Chris is the chief technology guy correct? Do you guys know if they are having any success with Stan's stuff? -
#47 ·
Tony,if you got that core from John,I thought it looked familiar,I made those cores.That metal was some material I bought,and a few people here bought some.I spent alot of time making 4 sets of them.Hope it works out for your testing.
Don -
#48 ·
Yeah I bought some from you don, took your advice as well and
used a guillotine paper cutter to cut out the e and I sections, it
worked well. Thanks for all your contributions. -
#49 · date not recorded
Ok Tony,
Before you mentioned that the capacitor has all positive pulses at one side and all negative pulses at the other even though each plate is recieving AC that is 180 out of phase.
I've been looking into that effect and one person on an EE forum told me that electrolytic capcitors may act like a rectifier if the current through them is restricted....So now that is all I've heard, just searching around trying to find more info on the phenemenon to see if it really exists.
In the mean time I should also say that I got my VIC matrix circuit multisim replication working again, but I need to do more testing to make sure it's a correct replication...I don't want to fill this forum up with disinfo. I am getting the pulse doubling effect from the out of phase AC at each choke. But as we know the water capacitor has some special effects which cannot be replicated, like ionization and incrneased voltage, and maybe even rectification? Also, even though the circuit is at resonance the current is not dropping as it should. -
#50 · date not recorded
I succeeded the unipolar pulses. This waveform of the vic sync pulse is not two ac 180° signals is simply a balanced +- outputs. There is a reason for this in the techbrief.