How to build the vic tried and tested
Started by unknown · · 113 posts · last reply 6 September 2011
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#26 ·
hi tony
i have a customer, but i disagree.., the only flux cutting secondary or chokes is from the primary. remember there is no current flowing in the circuit due to electron clustering, all electrons in the primary magnetic field align forming tiny bar magnets, they will have a magnetic field is this what you are talking about?
dude u look scary in that pic
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#27 ·
HI Spintronic
Many thanks for sharing Your knowlege. My english is bad.
Can you clear this to my- only primary coil must be the iron wire , secondary and two resonant coils can be the copper wire , please?
I like learn from you.
thank
andy -
#28 ·
no problem andy
secondary and choke coils must be iron
primary iron or copper, copper still under test
hope that helps
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#29 ·
why are you saying that the coils need to be iron and not copper? -
#30 ·
Thank Spintronic
andy -
#31 ·
hi tony
ok
The source of information is hard work at first, it gets easier.
Ferrous and non ferrous metals have very different propertys
Spin-polarized currents flow well in magnetic materials, but when they enter non-magnetic materials the electrons begin to lose their spin polarization in a process called spin-flip scattering.
source http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion
in Copper wire each atom cannot form a north or south pole so meyers vic will not work. copper wire has not worked for over 4 years now.
Spintronics is an advanced form of electronics that harnesses not just the electrical charge of electrons (as in conventional electronics) but also a property called spin that makes electrons act like tiny bar magnets
source http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html
inorder to stop current flow the electrons must form perfectly aligned magnets, they stick together (north to south poles) this is refered to as electron clustering. It is not 100% clear to me the physics but i know this works.
the magnetic field from the primary must be perfectly uniform. if not it will leak. even a leaky primary can be shown clearly to restrict current. a correctly wound primary will read zero amps on a multimeter that measure down to 10uA (test done on my vic).
Any questions please post, i dont know everything unfortunately. i know this works.
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#32 ·
But that is what the closed-loop core does. It maintains the polarization with in the closed-loop and minimizes the leakage. -
#33 ·
i think we are on different pages.... explain -
#34 ·
are u useing fancy words for a magnetic core? i shall give u some time to reply, if it makes sense to me all the better. we need to be on the same page -
#35 ·
This is straight out of one of my electronics books from school. "The effects of a closed magnetic loop is maximum concentration of magnetic lines in the magnet with minimum lines outside the core. This type of electromagnet has maximum strength in the iron ring & little flux outside. As a result, the toroidal magnet is less sensitive to induction from external magnetic fields & has little magnetic effect outside the coil. Note that, even if the winding is over only a small part of the ring, practically all the flux is in the iron core because its permeability is so much greater than that of air. The small part of the field in the air is called leakage flux." -
#36 ·
Here is how the core & coils interact.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/coil&core.jpg) -
#37 · date not recorded
Look to me the primary, pickup, secondary and chokes are the same type of material.
If it is iron wire it has more resistance than copper wire.
If you look at the resistance measurements of the VIC (Dynodon provided) than you go for copper wire. (you don't want amps in the primary because the wire thickness and current is 'wasted' as heat!!!)
Material Element/Alloy (ohm-cmil/ft) (microohm-cm)
Iron --------- Element -------------- 57.81 --------- 9.61
Copper ------- Element -------------- 10.09 --------- 1.678
What the copper wire is doing is shake (voltage) the inner core material and generate magnetic pulse fields.
"Current (magnetic field) is the opposite side of voltage potential (electrostatic)"
The pulsating field is restricting the amps, what SM explains!!!
The closed loop core is providing an adding magnetic field to all the coils, so restricting more current on the right pulse frequency. That's why the current is going down on resonance.
That's what I think.
Br,
Webmugattachment_9389 vic-wire.jpg
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#38 · date not recorded
Hi spintronic
Q:
the magnetic field from the primary must be perfectly uniform. if not it will leak. even a leaky primary can be shown clearly to restrict current. a correctly wound primary will read zero amps on a multimeter that measure down to 10uA (test done on my vic).
Any questions please post, i dont know everything unfortunately. i know this works.
end Q.
Can you clear to my How to make the primary coil correctly in order to generate magnetic field perfectly uniform.
You mean zero amps flow thru the primary coil?
Thank for ansver
andy -
#39 · date not recorded
The Primary windings see the impedance's of the feedback, secondary, L1, and L2 coils. So when at resonance, the primary impedance must match the impedances of all these coils in order to get a 100% transfer of energy. As for the current, once you get a significant amount of current flowing through the primary, you wont get the resonance that Stan talks about. The current will stop resonance for happening and you will have an out of resonant condition. -
#40 · date not recorded
Hi andy
First follow the science links on electron spin orbit and understand the basics they talk of, this is important.
The spin orbits must all line up perfectly to do this the primary magnetic field must have no bends, kinks, gaps ect. It must be a very tight close wound perfect coil. not easy. The best way is to machine the spools so there is no gap formed as you first wind the wire on, you can then compress the wire without a bend appearing.
Failure to do this will mean not all electrons align. The electrons that do not will leak out into the circuit or in other words create emf.
The good thing is we can see even a coil that leaks shows current restriction, for example by reversing the inhibit coil 178mA flows, putting the wires back the current drops to 20mA, voltage out is unaffected either way.
hope that helps andy with english not being your first language
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#41 · date not recorded
@webmug
Iron wire primary will generate more heat as you say, it also induces more current.
@tony
The thing is tony we can discuss what you are saying for many years to come, as they have for the last 4 years. If i believed what you are saying had value i would be all ears, i do mean that, but so many have built it or variations of with no tube system to show for there work, or steam resonator or injector system. Current flows hydrolysis or some slightly novel gas method of little use is the result. Time has proved this beyond any reasonable doubt. I have built meyers copper vic, it did not work, i could not make it work and i cannot put any sort of spin on it to make it still look a promising avenue of research to continue with. You clearly are a skilled technician and if you can get your copper vic to work as meyer described i will post some beers straight to your doorstep.
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#42 ·
@spintronic
I think maybe we are on the same page.
The iron wire on the secondary and choke acts as part of the transformer core. It gets magnetized, the electron orbits align themselves at this time.
When the orbits are aligned, they have a polarity, a positive and negative pole. The magnetic field created by the primary winding locks the electrons into place, because opposites attract, therefore no current flows.
This may be oversimplified but I think it fits the electron bounce that Stan describes. Electron spin theory is new to me, but still corresponds with my interpretation of what Stan wrote.
Maybe another way to do it is make a toroid core out of the iron wire which would be the secondary winding and choke, then wrap the primary on top of it. The leakage may be easier to contain because of the toroid configuration, but definetly harder to wind.
Without a doubt, there are always multiple ways of accomplishing a goal. I think copper will work, but less efficient in a different winding configuration.
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#43 ·
@h2o_splitter
Sounds to me like your starting to pick it up, in ferrous wire the electron spin forms tiny bar magnets. in copper the spin does not form magnets. copper can never work. Like you say it fits with what meyer was talking about and now we can put some science behind it. I can see your putting the pieces together ,where there was darkness let there be light.
keep researching and dont forget to post what you find to help everyone.
think about it if magnets are formed in the secondary coil they can become "stuck" to each other if aligned north to south poles, electron clustering. It will give one end of the coil a north pole the other a south. Now add the inhibit choke that has formed north and south poles being in the same magnetic field with the same electron clustering effect. wire its south pole to the secondary south pole, would this not further reduce any current.
The more you think about it the more it makes sense.
Once i have spread the good news to enough it will be time to move on to meyers other kit.
A little more feedback is needed...
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#44 ·
Here are some scope shots of my VIC Transformers outputs and as you can see the voltages are 180 degrees out of phase like Stan says they should be.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11038.JPG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11039.JPG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11040.JPG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11041.JPG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11042.JPG)
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#45 ·
not given much thought to waveforms out of the vic, working on getting a easy way of winding the primary for larger build. but with no current influx into the circuit current will not be 90 degrees out of phase, it will not be there.
There is one fundemental problem you have with the copper wire vic, it is impossible to restrict current and keep full voltage or anywhere near full voltage across the wfc. to make matters worse current flowing, even teny weny amounts stop meyers water splitting process. game over bud. people have tried for so long a time and failed. i have seen the technology i describe work with my own eyes, i have not made a mistake, time will show this to true, unless your one of the MIB`s (men in black) in which case a wfc will be sitting in your front room. get working on that all copper vic or i will be downing those beers otherwise destined for your doorstep. -
#46 ·
That's not true, coils with copper wire can restrict current flow. It's not the wires DC resistance that restricts the current, it's the magnet fields that are generated with in the coil and the Inductive & Capacitance Reactance that restricts current flow. Not sure where you're getting your information about this. I've tested and demonstrated this current restricting effect. I made a coil for the 8XA circuit that had inductance around 3H for L1 and 2.5H for L2 and I got resonance with that setup. I was inputting around 10vdc through the choke and restricting current below 25mA and outputting voltage well over 1kv peak. The water was charged up well enough that I could place a light bulb next to the cell and it would light up. I guess you haven't figured out yet that the LC circuit works with both Series & Parallel Resonance. You have a Series Resonance between the Secondary, L1, and the Cell. You have Parallel Resonance between L1 & L2. Not sure if you know what the different effects are between Series & Parallel Resonance or not. I will give you a quick lease. Series Resonance will give you a minimum impedance at the resonance frequency and Parallel Resonance will give you maximum impedance at the resonant frequency. Minimum impedance mean no resistance (XL=XC) and maximum impedance means infinite resistance (Amp Restriction). Spintronic, do you have any background in electronics? -
#47 ·
Tony
" You have Parallel Resonance between L1 & L2. " is it true
or between L2 and the cell?
andy -
#48 · date not recorded
Tony
If I may ask a question or two. Are your scope shots done with the two probes at the positive and negative plates so to speak? Is your vic transformer wired and set up exactly like meyer's drawing of the four coils? Or is it done with the 8XA coil?
I'd like to duplicate your inversed phase situation.
I've been trying various core materials and have found iron rebar rods for concrete works best so far. Thin strips of magnetic laminate steel are currently under testing. I've been able to turn some steel bolts into nice permanent magnets after a short time.
Spintronic,
What are you trying for vic core materials?
Regards,
kickbackemf -
#49 · date not recorded
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#50 · date not recorded
@Andy, yea it looks to be parallel resonance between the L1 & L2 chokes.
@Kickbackemf, yea the shots are from the B+ and B- outputs to the plates/tubes. The VIC is wire up like Stan shows in his diagrams for the 5 coil VIC Transformer. I'm using a 2000 permeability ferrite core with 30ga. copper wire. Have you tried M27 laminates? Stan makes reference in his writings that it can be used for the 5 coil VIC Transformer.