Figuring out the Steam Resonator
Started by unknown · · 128 posts · last reply 3 March 2012
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#51 · date not recorded
another point to remember: a sine wave allows the water molecule to flip slowly as it changes phase 180 degrees, but a sharp square wave will SNAP the molecules 180 degrees, thats where the most efficient heating will be found
Nice theory, Ali, but questionable. Water doesnt react very quick on power on and off.
Take two electrodes and a bucket of water. Turn on the power. It takes at least 3 seconds before you see any reaction. Even when the water already has a charge, it will react slow.
At least, those are my observations....for what it is worth...
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#52 · date not recorded
I went a little off topic here but Im referring to the hydrogen production, not the steam resonator. -
#53 ·
Back to the steam resonator:
I was studying the driving circuit for the home heating unit and I realized it also has a bridge rectifier like the one used for the dune buggy.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/123232.png)
Above you'll see the bridge rectifier circled in red, made of individual diodes.
I'm still not sure what purpose it serves through...The input to the rectifier is 24VAC...
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#54 ·
The picture I posted last is of the driving circuit, the most important circuit to understand in order to figure out the steam resonator.
Kali_ma_Amar explained this circuit well on page 4 of this topic but there are still a few things I would like to point out, and figure out...
First, the circuit has a bridge rectifier just like the steam resonantor used in the dune buggy. It appears that the rectified output was put through a 12V regulator and a transistor which I think was used to pulse the primary coil in the home heating unit.
Each steam resonator (the home heating unit and the dune buggy) has 2 NPN and 2 PNP transistors.
The steam resonator is not a capacitor, and inductor, or a resistor. I think current is limited by the coil reactance and the high watt resistors only.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/steamres3.png)
I would like to point out once again using the circuit above that the steam resonator tubes are nothing more than conductive surfaces placed in the water. A current and voltage wave will travel through them, the polarity of the wave depending on the direction of current flow through the conductor. Although there is no voltage build up and a very small voltage drop across the tubes there is still a voltage wave which passes through the tubes. Pulsing this wave back and forth at high speed and switching the direction of the traveling wave is what ultimately causes the water to heat up. I learned when studying transmission lines that voltage waves propogate at the speed of light(1).
(1) Ref http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_14/3.html
Now as far as questions I have is about the coil itself....The dune buggy steam resonator coil has 3 coils (6 wire ends) while the home heating unit looked to have 7 wires coming out of it...Maybe 3 coils, 1 center tap?
So, what I'm wanting to know now is how the coil was designed. I tend to think each had 1 primary coil and 2 secondary coils bifilar wound, but that is a theory I have yet to prove out.... -
#55 ·
This is one of Stan's transformers, it might have been used for the steam resonator also. You can see written on it the number of turns, 18 T Primary, 360 T, 20:1
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/Steam_TX.jpg) -
#56 ·
Above you'll see the bridge rectifier circled in red, made of individual diodes.
I'm still not sure what purpose it serves through...The input to the rectifier is 24VAC...
HI
This bridge is the part of the power source for driving circuit of steam resonator for home heating. In the dune buggy power source is 12 V from accumulator. ( so bridge is for other purpose )
andy
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#57 · date not recorded
Above you'll see the bridge rectifier circled in red, made of individual diodes.
I'm still not sure what purpose it serves through...The input to the rectifier is 24VAC...
HI
This bridge is the part of the power source for driving circuit of steam resonator for home heating. In the dune buggy power source is 12 V from accumulator. ( so bridge is for other purpose )
andy
Looks like its part of the powersupply.
Steve -
#58 · date not recorded
TonyW,
I have seen that picture before and wondered the same thing.
Looks alot like the one used on the buggy. -
#59 ·
HI to All
Maybe someone here have more pictures about steam resonator for home heating unit like vic transformer , or other circuits boards? Maybe someone have picture of the other side circuit board posted by HMS-776? For figuring it out. Thank for sharing.
andy -
#60 ·
From the measurements I have taken I have determined the core used on the buggy steam resonator is an E65 Ferrite core, not sure which type of ferrite yet. The primary wire is 18AWG, while the secondary coils are 22AWG.
The high watt resistors suggest that there is not a whole lot of power used in this circuit, maybe 5 or 10W. I'm not sure of the watt rating of those resistors but if they are 5W then the max current at 80V would be about 62mA. If they are 10W resistors then we are looking at 125mA.
Looking at the PNP and NPN transistor configuration I can't help but wonder why Meyer didn't just use a push pull driver on the primary coil to achieve the polarity switching? -
#61 · date not recorded
Above you'll see the bridge rectifier circled in red, made of individual diodes.
I'm still not sure what purpose it serves through...The input to the rectifier is 24VAC...
HI
This bridge is the part of the power source for driving circuit of steam resonator for home heating. In the dune buggy power source is 12 V from accumulator. ( so bridge is for other purpose )
andy
The home heating unit assumes a power supply, a common 120 vac to 24 vac wall plug, after rectifying we get 12 volts pulsing DC for the circuit board -
#62 · date not recorded
From the measurements I have taken I have determined the core used on the buggy steam resonator is an E65 Ferrite core, not sure which type of ferrite yet. The primary wire is 18AWG, while the secondary coils are 22AWG.
The high watt resistors suggest that there is not a whole lot of power used in this circuit, maybe 5 or 10W. I'm not sure of the watt rating of those resistors but if they are 5W then the max current at 80V would be about 62mA. If they are 10W resistors then we are looking at 125mA.
Looking at the PNP and NPN transistor configuration I can't help but wonder why Meyer didn't just use a push pull driver on the primary coil to achieve the polarity switching?
were those push pulls available in the early 80's? -
#63 ·
The push-pull circuits I'm referring to are made from NPN and PNP transistors and are simple circuits.
They have been around since before then. They are very similiar to Meyer's crossover circuit except they are placed on the primary side of the transformer. -
#64 ·
I too am fascinated by Meyer's ability to superheat water using voltage and not current.
We CAN DO THIS!
Keep up the good work all.
I am working on extracting the circuit from the pics of the home steam heater unit.
Wish me luck.
What threw me for a loop is the bridge rectifier on the 'steam resonator' transformer heatsink.
It sure does look like a power supply setup, but why were there complementary transistors there - PNP and NPN?
We know the following from that picture:
The Collectors of the two PNP transistors are tied together, and go to a black wire that has been cut.
The emitters of one of the NPN and PNP transistors (the pair to the left) go through a 220 ohm resistor and then tie together to the coil.
The emitters of the transistor pair to the right do the same.
The base connections on all transistors have been cut.
It is almost like an h-bridge of some type, but this is not certain.
attachment_10654 Steam Resonator VIC.jpg
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#65 ·
waterfreak, How were you able to find out they were 220 Ohm resistors?
Also,
The H bridge is the same conclusion TonyW and I have accepted after he mentioned it a while back.
It is also why I am confused that stan didn't just use use a push pull circuit at the primary coil?
Also, each Steam Resonator coil has at least 3 seperate coils. It looks like 1 primary and 2 secondary coils.
The plates of the steam resonator do not form a capacitor, they are merely plates in the water in which the current flows through along with the voltage wave. I already have the driving circuit down and wokring, I am currently trying to find a coil which I think could perform the operation of the steam resonator. I think the coil is about the same as the VIC only without the negative choke. -
#66 ·
HMS-776....I think I know know why Stan made the flip-flop circuit on the secondary side instead of the Primary side. If he would have make the flip-flop on the Primary side, it would mess up the resonance, by placing it on the Secondary side it allows resonance to continue during the process. what do you think about this?
Also, the FWB rectifier is connected to the output of the Steam Resonator transformer. -
#67 · date not recorded
HMS,
If you have figured out the driver circuit, please enlighten the rest of us.
The resistors match exactly with the 220 ohm resistors on Stan's other vic circuits and photos. He seems to like using 220 ohm resistors with his coils for some reason.
I am not sure of the AWG wire on the coil, but it appears the windings are all the same wire size.
Also, the coil seems to be wrapped in such a way as to leave the plastic tape between each wire as it was wound - not
just between the windings. I believe some others in the forum have mentioned this could be a secret to the VIC?
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#68 ·
Tony & waterfreak
Thanks for the input, the more sides we look at this the better we will all understand it....
I'm still contemplating if resonance was used in the steam resonator circuit? Looking at the home heating unit each switching transistor had a diode which would prevent any series resonance. Also, the steam resonator tubes do not act as a capacitor. If there is resonance it would have to be one of the coils resonating.
Note that in the buggy steam res VIC there were several high watt resistors. I think they were used to limit current but also protect the transistors in case the switching overlapped. The home heating unit used a huge core. Look at how thick the laminations were built up to! This was made for some serious inductance. Imo the inductive reactance of the coil performs current limiting. From my studies I think the circuit is similiar to the VIC, only without a negative choke.
Meyer states in a News Release that the steam resonator is an offshoot of the VIC....In all the diagrams and explanations in the TB resonance is not mentioned. One might think that the term 'resonator' implies resonance but that is a different kind of resonance. When referring to resonant cavities or waveguides the resonance is not the same thing as resonance within a circuit.
Waterfreak...
I should have actually called it the switching circuit, not the driving circuit. I designed a switching circuit on multisim which is very basic. It consists of a 555, a counter, and an RS flip flop to turn on and off the polarity switching transistors. Anyone who knows electronics can easily design something similiar.
And the plastic tape between the windings, that's no secret. It's just insulation for the coils. It's common in most transformers. Likely kapton tape or something similiar.
UPDATE: Just got a PM from Don after asking him about the VIC card for the steam resonator. Don said the card was identical to the other VIC cards. So resonance was used in the Steam Resonator. This brings up more questions???
With the microcontroller used in the home heating unit it may also have used resonance....attachment_10668 HHU coil.png
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#69 ·
HMS, thanx for the nfo.
I believe you are correct in your assumptions.
As far as the vic board being identical to the other resonant cavity control boards, they may have looked identical, but I wonder if all parts of the board were actually used?
Many of Stan's boards have wire bridges, etc., and I wonder if he only used part of the board in the steam resonator.
I do not think he used resonance in the steam setup, but I could be wrong.
Here's a hand-drawn diagram of the steam resonator circuit someone made on another forum - I found it here:
http://stansdream.com.ru/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6e0402099017ae0ee0717d8aa83348b0&topic=4.0
Does it look like a polarity switching circuit to you?
As far as the picture from the home heating unit HMS, it could be a simple power supply transformer, supplying power for the unit.
I don't know - the wires and the transformer itself appear to be professionally made standard step-down xfmr to me.
Your guess is as good as mine.
But, if you look at the control board, you will see Stan used two transistors in pairs - NTE247(NPN) and NTE248(PNP), which are silicon complementary transistors.
He also used NPN and PNP pairs in the steam resonator vic we are discussing.
There is a common thread here, if we expand on it and follow it more closely, I believe.
I really want to get this working - It's cold here!
Plus, how many people could use a water heater that does not use tons of amps?
Something else I found interesting is the home heating unit board itself - it has the filename "WFCDRIVR.CKT" silkscreened on it.
If someone had access to this file, it would reveal a lot. I'm sure it was on one of the computers that was with the estate.
Also, on the control board, you will see the silkscreen says "24VAC".
The transformer appears to have 7 wires (that we can see).
HMS, your assumption of the coil having a secondary with bifilar chokes seems to be supported by the patent diagram.
Notice also the chokes (only) have a common core. In other parts of the patent, Stan states the coil is "together bifilar wrapped in equal length".
There is a mention of "resonant charging chokes".
Simple in concept, extremely complex in reality.attachment_10656 attachment_10658 Stan Meyer Steam Resonator Circuit.jpg wfcdrivr-ckt.jpg
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#70 ·
Good points,
BTW I think you are right about the coil...There is an aftermarket power supply (note pic below on the right side) attached to the home heating unit which runs off of +24V.
I have also noticed Meyer stated the primary and secondary coils are bifilar wrapped equal in length, but he also states in the same TB section that the voltage is directly related to the turns ratio "Voltage intensity is directly related to the number of turns of each coil..." (TB p11-3).
Attached is a multisim replication of the crossover circuit. As you can see it's similiar to an H bridge circuit. R5 represents the steam resonator....Please note that the values of the resistances and transistors are not correct. I have been changing values to see the different effects and take measurements. The waveform shows the polarity switching. When transistors Q1 and Q3 are switched on the polarity across R5 will be in one direction, when transistors Q2 and Q4 are switched on the polarity will reverse. As you can also see there is a brief period between polarity switching. This is also shown in the Tech Brief.
In the waveform a DC voltage was applied across the circuit. When a coil is used the coil can be pulsed faster than the switching and then the waveform will represent what is shown in the tech brief.
(Sorry to keep editing, I'm sick today and can't think straight)
attachment_10662 attachment_10664 attachment_10666 HHU top view.png FC28v.png SR82.png
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#71 ·
thinking of what is a potential useful application of the steam resonator is for - underslab and under floor heating using the steam resonator with a solar supply and having the concrete slab or otherunderfloor type reservoir of a water volume for heat distribution over the time the solar isnt being generated will help with a healthier indoor temp of the dwelling, got a cold workshop? give this idea a try.......this is an incentive to have a working steam resonator opensource
what do you think
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#72 · date not recorded
Opensource, I'd say that's what we are doing in this thread.
The problem is, as waterfreak stated earlier.
SIMPLE IN CONCEPT, EXTREMELY COMPLEX IN REALITY!
If this technology were simple at all we would all be driving water powered cars. -
#73 · date not recorded
I have a few ideas of my own based on what info and pics we have seen. I built robots many years ago and to drive the motors I designed H bridges for forward and reverse and used PWM (pulse width modulation) to control the speed, but give full power. I’ll see if I can dig up the circuits I used. If I can get it working, think of this: Take a standard 30 gal electric water heater, build a “Steam Resonator” element to replace the 220 volt element. Hot water using a fraction of the power needs. The only thing I would worry about is leaching of chromium from the stainless. Would run some test before I hooked it into my house. It also would not be a major retrofit to replace my 5 ton propane furnace with a hot water heat system. As for now, I’m just trying to find time to work on the 5 coil VIC stuff. -
#74 · date not recorded
This is a circuit I built back last year that does the same as the Steam Resonator circuit.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Flip-Flop-Circuit.png)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Flip-Flop-Circuit-2.png) -
#75 · date not recorded
" Take a standard 30 gal electric water heater, build a “Steam Resonator” element to replace the 220 volt element. Hot water using a fraction of the power needs. The only thing I would worry about is leaching of chromium from the stainless. Would run some test before I hooked it into my house."
40 plus years ago copper hot water cylinders were made with their own header tank on top of the cylinder - so it is a top up tank and expansion tank - the cylinder is low pressure - no valve venting requied - the only parts requiring servicing are the ballcock in the headertank and the element, inside the cylinder is a coil of copper = which mains pressure water was fed through to heat giving mains pressure hot water - very effective in isolating low/mains pressure and very low maintanence costs.....the same principle applied to the steam resonator using suitable materials effectively eliminates contamination concerns......also means solar collectors can be hooked into the same system.