timeshell

Was there a question?

Incidentally, a very small amount of electrolysis is actually needed as gas is needed to be produced at the beginning to change the resistivity of the WFC to allow higher reactance and in turn a higher voltage to be applied to the WFC.  So we are not blocking all current as massive was suggesting.  A very small amount is still needed to start the process.

Strange, I thought over the last few days I just did explain.   Just to also re emphasize, it is necessary to change the resistivity of the cell by replacing water with gas.  This can be done by starting off with electrolysis. Otherwise it will be too difficult to get the charge high enough.

I have a significant understanding of how the VIC works now.  Take some time to piece together what I've posted.

Incidentally, a very small amount of electrolysis is actually needed as gas is needed to be produced at the beginning to change the resistivity of the WFC to allow higher reactance and in turn a higher voltage to be applied to the WFC.  So we are not blocking all current as massive was suggesting.  A very small amount is still needed to start the process.

🤨

Everything you have said is out of context.  I'm not gonna bother arguing with you any further.

This thread is named "Back to Basics"

a FBT in discontinuous mode has a HV saw tooth output and only 1 coil is active while the other is open circuit.

There is no winding ratio. It is stored energy discharge

I disagree with your assessment.  Both chokes have to be energized simultaneously by the secondary coil because the secondary will induce voltage on both of them simultaneously, thereby causing the mutual opposing inductance to choke the current, hence why Meyer called them chokes.  The secondary could be operating as a FBT, but not the chokes.  Matching the reactance to the wfc and the secondary is critical to make it work.

Hey Fabio.  Não é só no Brasil.  Mesmo aqui na Canada está muito caro pra viver.

The sec is open circuit, when the pri is active
The pri is switched off (open) and then the sec is active, and the diode is switched on

Whatever dude.

I'm pretty sure it's not that simple.  There are a number of things going on with the VIC.

1.  The choke coils opposing mutual inductance choke current.
2.  Although the VIC is essentially a DC circuit, it contains a linear resonant AC pseudo circuit between the chokes and the WFC.
3.  The secondary coil's only purpose is to energize the pseudo circuit.
4.  The opposing mutually inductive chokes have slightly different inductances, so they don't completely choke all current.  They are likely designed this way for 2 reasons:
   a) to match the reactance of each side of the WFC to the same resonant frequency
   b) to leak current just enough to allow an eventual kick when the voltage is high enough to cause the complete breakdown of the dielectric property of the water in the gap of the WFC but not to allow electrolysis to occur while the voltage field is building up sufficiently for the given gap.
5.  The inductance of each choke needs to be tuned to a value similar to the inductance of the secondary coil in order to properly limit any current that the secondary coil may be inducing. It's in this way that the the opposing mutual inductance of the chokes on both sides of the secondary can suppress the current while allowing the voltage to build up.

Guys.  I wonder if we are going about this whole thing all wrong.

The goal is "voltrolysis" right?  Build up voltage, and have virtually no current right?

Look at the LM317.  It is designed to limit current OR voltage.  Not both.  To limit current, it dynamically adjusts input voltage as needed.

Here is what we are looking for!!

We don't care how much input voltage is being applied to the VIC transfomer.  We should care about the input current.  Look at this:

To avoid electrolysis in water even with a high voltage across a small gap, the current density and power dissipation in the water must be kept low enough to prevent the decomposition of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen.

Here’s a breakdown of the factors:

1. Threshold for Electrolysis
Electrolysis typically begins around 1.23V across the electrodes. Applying 1kV across a 1 mm gap would generate a very strong electric field (1 million volts per meter) that could easily ionize the water if enough current flows. However, electrolysis also depends on current density, so if the current is kept extremely low, it might be possible to avoid significant electrolysis.

2. Dielectric Breakdown and Current Density
At 1kV over 1 mm, water is likely near or past its dielectric breakdown, where it begins to conduct electricity even as a dielectric. At this voltage level, even with minimal current, the strong field may encourage some ionization, so complete avoidance of electrolysis becomes difficult.

3. Estimating Safe Current
To roughly estimate, electrolysis can be minimized if the current density is kept below 0.1 mA/cm² or lower. For a tiny gap like 1 mm, with electrodes in close proximity, you'd ideally want to stay in the microamp range (e.g., 1–10 µA) to minimize ionization effects.

Summary
In practical terms:

Limit current to microamps (µA) at most.
Even with very low current, at 1kV across 1 mm, water will likely experience some ionization due to the strong electric field.
In summary, keeping current below a few microamps might reduce electrolysis effects, but with such a high electric field, some ionization and possible electrolysis could still occur.

Our objective is to achieve "voltrolysis"—building up a high voltage with minimal current across a water gap to avoid electrolysis. Here’s the strategy:

Current Limiting with LM317: The LM317 voltage regulator can be set to maintain a constant current output by dynamically adjusting the output voltage. By applying a high input voltage to the LM317, we can define the output current precisely, allowing the LM317 to handle any required voltage adjustments automatically.

Focus on Input Current for the VIC Transformer: Instead of managing the input voltage to the VIC transformer, we should focus on controlling the input current. With the LM317 set to limit current, we can establish the desired electric field across the water cell without exceeding the electrolysis threshold.

Resonance Tuning: By operating the VIC transformer at resonance, the circuit will naturally adjust the voltage to maintain the specified input current. Resonance will maximize the voltage across the water cell, helping achieve the high field strength needed to approach avalanche breakdown across the water gap without significant current flow.

By combining current limiting, high voltage, and resonance, this approach enables precise control over the electric field across the water, which prevents electrolysis by ensuring minimal current flows across the cell, no matter the voltage level.

Here's something else.  Current lags voltage 90⁰ right?  When you apply the pulse to your primary, the primary will try to draw as much current according to its resistance (V=IR).  You need to choke the current going into your primary so that the voltage gets applied only, with as little current as possible.  The voltage will still get transformed and the current will be negligible on the secondary. This will help the water to resist any remaining current to allow a higher voltage charge across the water cell.

The water needs to resist the current until the voltage peaks at resonance are high enough to overcome the gap.  At 1mm, that would be 1.8kV.

Do the reading on straight unpulsed DC.  This is how you impedance match the cell to the coils.  You need to find the impedance match of the water with the coils with the maximum voltage you will apply to the primary of your transformer.

I have already done it.  This will be how to get the maximum power transfer to your cell when then placing it on the Vic.

Well, if you think about it, the water is the load on the DC circuit.  Otherwise, like any other capacitor, it would just be an open circuit.

Check this out.

I'm pretty sure Ronnie did not do this...

I'm not sure I understand why you refer to the water cell as having an inductance.  Since the water cell is either a resistor or a capacitor, neither of these have an inductive property.

And that's why I'm saying if the impedance of the load is too low vs the impedance of the line the line will not be able to do much with the load since the power is limited

At resonance, the impedance of the circuit becomes purely resistive, and its value equals the resistance in the circuit. This results in the circuit being in a state of minimum impedance.

This is why impedance matching the water's resistivity to your coils is so important in order to maximize power transfer and minimize current flow through the WFC.

The water needs to be able to resist normal electrolysis by having an impedance just greater than or equal to the power source.

If the water impedance is slightly higher, then you can properly tune the choke coils to match resonance to the distinctively different capacitances of both sides of the water cell, due to differences in the cylindrical geometry, which results in the chokes having slightly different resistances.  This may also make up for the slight impedance difference between the water and the secondary.

That was what I already said here.

Seb, I think you are way over-complicating it.

The VIC has 5 simple components and 2 simple functions.

The components of the first function (resonant circuit) are:
3x coils (inductive value)
1x diode
1x water capacitor

At resonance, when the circuit is purely resistive, the components of the second function are:
3x coils (resistive value)
1x diode
1x water resistor

Consider how these work when impedance matched.

At resonance, the impedance of the circuit becomes purely resistive, and its value equals the resistance in the circuit. This results in the circuit being in a state of minimum impedance.

This is why impedance matching the water's resistivity to your coils is so important in order to maximize power transfer and minimize current flow through the WFC.

The water needs to be able to resist normal electrolysis by having an impedance just greater than or equal to the power source.

If the water impedance is slightly higher, then you can properly tune the choke coils to match resonance to the distinctively different capacitances of both sides of the water cell, due to differences in the cylindrical geometry, which results in the chokes having slightly different resistances.  This may also make up for the slight impedance difference between the water and the secondary.

The resistance of the secondary coil on the main transformer must be less than the resistivity of the water between the   electrodes of the cell.  Otherwise you will be dumping excess current into the cell.  The opposing chokes should be tuned similarly.

NewGuy, normal electrolysis does start at just under 2V.  Breaking the water with just a voltage field is what requires a much higher voltage pulse.