Hello man, no actually what i'm saying is that even your cell siting on the ground you already have a capacitance between outside ad inside of the cell. I just mean to improve it by adding greater area, witch in turn for every volt let you extract over more electrons from the water. Even a coil if connected in the right way could become this conductor.
would also say that maybe the amp inhibiting coil is the one that goes connected to the outside of the container. And i would say that it has a closed loop induction core in order to compensate and thus complete the resonant frequency.
I mean, In the Vic Sync pulse.
Both charging chokes go to the tubes and the amp inhibiting go to outside the container. (in the tech paper stan say SS wire for it) Not sure if really needed. Except if he wanted it to also become its amp consuming device. As per the temperature ss support and as by skin effect it would have the probability of emiting electrons. We shall not let anything pass unobserved.
I mean, the inductance of the secondary plus that of the chokes 56 and 62 than all this multiplied by the capacitance of the tubes, must equal to the inductance of half of the secondary + the amp inhibiting+ the choke 62 all this multiplied by the relative capacitance to the outside of the container.
In my analysis this form a resonant tank perfectly in equilibrium. And agree with my theory that the outside must be the 0v or relative ground.
This is pretty similar to the picture of dan danfor but not exactly. Is like if the water charge only in one direction and when the current should change direction it does but going to the outside capacitor. All this affect the water.
Well, I found in a brazilian website for physics experiments the edison effect, they just took a regular lamp (filament) and added a top made of aluminum paper, than they could light a neon bulb connecting it to the aluminum and to the base of the lamp. Only half of the neon lighted up so they say it happens like a rectification.
They also say that any heating element will do this.
Well got to say this is very exiting, i'm thinking a way to get around with those electrons and thought of the following, to have a heating element inside a copper tube and to add another isolated supply between the filament and the tube (positive to the tube) this will deflect the electrons possibly ionizing the air passing there thus maybe eliminating those electrons.
Other thing that crossed my mind is that if you just operate the cell thru this amp consuming device, being everything isolated ground there should occur electron extraction too and therefore also the water polarization.
The thing is that you need to light the filament so it can emit electrons away like stan said. And a way to get them consumed or tracked at least so we can know where they are going should be found.
I have here some SS wire and some ceramics formers for high temp resistors wire wound. I will check how much current should pass in order to light it up. I also think that coating it with low work function material would help. But the idea to add the field makes of it a thermo emission field effect aided.
I read today in some books that if you apply a field to the emission you increase the emission. This is called field emission. Light can also be used to help.
I repeat that maybe the amp restriction is also acomplish by the crossed fields on the electrons, like the negative electrode to be the positive stationary field in relation to outside the bath so the positive field don't allow the electrons to flow cause it attracts them.
Other thing i thought of is that the electron extraction thereto can be used being in series with the cell or to discharge the outside electrode.
I think that also a spark gap is a good way to send away electrons. (not very good idea having hydrogen around)
I want to explain a little better why the water would get positive charges if the electron extraction (lamp) is used in series (and of course if everything is isolated from ground).
A battery to have potential this happens cause of electrons go from the negative side to complete the way thru the circuit and get killed on the positive side. If you make the electrons go away from the circuit, the positive of the battery will not get destroyed. Actually i guess it will but will be because of the electrons that exited the bath, thus leaving the water a net positive charge. Witch interacts with the sub atomic forces within the water molecule and thereby switch off the covalent bounding.
Problems are, How to consume the electrons. (maybe solved)
How to know the exact filament to make it shine bright.
I thought of doing the following experiment.
To take a heating filament that lights up bright when 20 amps pass thru it. Than connect to the isolated bath direct from the battery. Than measure the voltage of the water in relation to the outside of the container.
I think that if all this is true probably few crude experiments could prove the point.
Other configuration just crossed mu thoughts, being the outer tube positive in relation to the outside container and the inner tube positive in relation to the outer tube.
I was thinking a little better and I think that the thing is to apply the isolated pulses in the contrary polarity so the electrons flow will be minimized. I tell you why. As the positive stationary field electrode will become the negative it will than attract the electrons so restricting the current. I suggest the use of also a negative stationary field this would than repel the electrons so restricting the current even further. We just need to add inside the inner tube a dielectric and another conductor isolated so it creates a field in relation to the outer tube.
So there are fields from outside the container to the inner tube and from inside of the inner tube and the outside tube.
He kind of talk about this repelling restriction of the current in the patent.
But keeping it simple stupid, apply the moderated isolated voltage (trains of pulses like he described) negative to the inner tube and positive to the outer tube, and charging the inner tube with positive charge in relation to the outside of the container (very high voltage).
I think that would be worth adding a spark gap between the inner tube and the outside of the container collector to make such that it discharges when reach the max voltage. I think this will help to give an even greater positive charge to the water.
I think that 100kv is a good start.
So everything must be thought to be insulated for 100kv. And i think that this is the only problem that must be think of.
So basically even if the isolated pulsing supply is of relatively low voltage it must be insulated between primary and secondary for 100kv.
I just remembered where i heard about charging the water. Joe cell
I know all those bull shits about orgone bla bla is not related but maybe the thing is that the idea was misunderstood.
The objective is to charge the water to a very high voltage and than apply a isolated dc supply between the cylinders.
The thing is this, to extract electrons from the isolated water bath, charge the water to very high voltages this should solve.
Stan used a plastic water tank. Everything was very insulated with delrin.
Lets than follow the KISS method!
I say maybe thing is so simple that meyer invented all those things just to keep everyone out of the track. But in the patents he said that electrons are ejected from the water bath. For me this mean give to the water bath a positive charge witch reminds me electrical polarization process. For me this connects.
His vic is very useful for obtaining extremely high voltages.
There are two paths here that the readers can take.
One is to say this is not what stan said and thus is not right.
And the other is to say, Stan described many things and anyone succeeded in replicating, might he explained correct? Did he wanted everyone to understand? Do i want to explain to you correctly?
I think that stan would never explain his process clearly. He only explains the theory and very partially.
While he say dielectric proprieties I say It takes on an electrical charge.
He say water bath molecules i say water bath molecules
He say electron ejection, i say electron extraction
He say stationary voltage field, I ask my self why???
Here i will make a point maybe the electron extraction is not necessary but maybe just charging the bath to a high potential is enough so not needing the EEC ... or not
I just did a new try, and got more than 1000 volts across the container. Across the plates there is a permanent charge of 450mv if you short the plates the voltage goes to zero but recharge again within a few seconds.
Bubz
WHen the water get charged the water atoms get electrically intensified this mean that the hydrogen atom become more positive and the oxygen become more negative, this break the bound in the following way, as the hydrogen become more positive it now attract the electron of the covalent bounding to it self orbit and at the same time the oxygen by being negatively intensified it repel the covalent electron thats why meyer say that the least voltage you apply the molecules will elongate and the gases will be liberated.
I think that i will have to work on my circuit because when i start to try with the spark gap the circuit stop oscillating. Any ideas?
I think that i'm very close to complete the quest.
The thing Bubz is that the water molecules in the isolated bath takes on an electrical charge (intrinsic proprieties of dielectrics) in reference to the outside of the container so you can have a capacitance there. Now if you charge the water and than discharge in a way that the electrons are prevented to come back into the water bath, it means that electrons were extracted from the water bath, this makes the water to get positively charged step by step. Electrically intensified.
I'm using only stan words with background knowledge interpretation.
If you read every single word that i wrote in this thread and read the patent that i suggested you will understand what i'm talking about. Even if there they where using other similar principle you will notice the talk about the covalent force in newtons and the calculations for it... and so on.
Dear friends i think is only about charging the water up to the maximum limit possible.
I think that up to 600kv is reasonable.
Than just shoot the pulses in the water and magic happens.
I think.
Think about the significance of the word isolated ground and isolated water bath and how you could have 40kv across a pair of tubes inside water and why his cell was constructed in acrylic and so many other things.........
Than consider Electrical polarization process (the act of polarizing the water molecule, giving to it a positive charge) Electrical extraction process (method for obtaining the polarization of the water molecule to accomplish the electrical polarization process) switch of the covalent bound.
My question is how can anyone have thought about this! But is very clear, you need to think of water like if it was a piece of plastic a dielectric and all its proprieties witch in its case is to retain a charge. Microcapacitors. Electrically intensified.
When a dielectric break down because of high voltage it happens because there are no more holes or electrons missing to link up the bands of conductions thus this means that on one side the atoms become very negatively intensified and on the other side the same.
As you see stan took this from the physics books about capacitors. I read some in the library.
So basically you want a net charge inside your water bath. And all connections to transformers and everything on the circuit must be insulated from ground or it would never work.
This is why his EPG worked. He created a too ingenious way to ionize the gases by using their dielectric proprieties. Is so clear now.
What keep puzzling me is how the electrons get consumed. I'm thinking of some possibility, like an electron emission by heating element having around it a copper tube grounded. Or if they will get already out during the hot arc. What worry me is the word consume.
I really guess that the electron deflection and entrapment plays the major role here. He in my imagination accelerated than this freed electrons (emission) to collide with oxygen in the air to free up even more electrons to than consume them by maybe stoping them in the coil while it is charged, letting the field to collapse and connect to the ground to discharge excess electrons.. -hum I don't really know, only experimenting i will be able to determine this.
Message to the Guests: If you don't login you can't see the pictures!
As you create a spark gap you consume electrons already so if you sequentially charge the water and discharge it thru a spark gap maybe into a lamp you will kind of consume the electrons allowing the water to acquire an ever increasing charge. And this charge will interact with the atomic forces in the water molecule!
I made a variable coil very nice today and finished the iron powder toroidal core vic ...
The time will tell.
I think that everything i'm talking about is interesting and makes a lot of sense so i will keep talking.
You got to realize that the Electrical Polarization Process as intended for Polarizing the water as a hole!!!
Electrical isolated ground x Electron extraction x Electrical Polarization
I repeat than water have a propriety that any dielectric have, it can retain a charge, witch is not a charge induced by a voltage separation but a charge due to net lack of concentration of free electrons...
So the electron extraction circuit intend to charge the water and extract electrons from the bath as to give a net charge to the water.
This is very normal, simple basic school theory.
The thing is that this charge affect the covalent bound of the water molecule. As the dielectric got a charge, it will have its atoms electrical exited energized, so the oxygen become more negative and the hydrogen become more positive. Becoming more negative the oxygen start to repel the covalent bound electron and as hydrogen become more positive its attraction to the electron increase thus by the way bellow mentioned you can weaken the covalent bound of the water molecule.
The vic sync pulse circuit clearly describes it! I think he created a synchronized way to cancel the covalent bound by the action of the electric fields while the pulse is applied to the plates.
Also i would say that only charging the inside tube in relation to the outer outer capacitance to very high kv will induce a voltage separation between the tubes.
I think that this is what he say in the newzealand video, when he say the water takes on a charge the oxygen atom will get more negative and the hydrogen atom will get more positive and say that when the oxygen become enough negative it will repel the covalent electron thus weakening the covalent bounding.
So we could add a charge to the bath and the electric field do the job. Than is just about creating the potential to the water to collide against it self to liberate the gas.
Think of it we have the plates inside the water witch form one side of the capacitor. In the outside of the bath being it glass or being plexiglass we will have a capacitance that will be mainly determined by its thickness.
In the Independent International ... There is a sheet with the plexiglass characteristics... Hum ?? interesting!
So if you add a sheet of copper in its outside you form an isolated ground bath.
Why Stan Used all that Delrin?
So charging the water you eliminate the covalent bounding so applying a voltage across the zones allow you to create a charge and discharge all there inside of the water by physical impact. Particle oscillation as energy generator.
I think that what stan mean here is that when the gate acts the gas is generated. He says basically...
In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath;
(the "isolated bath" gets positively charged in relation to the ground level...
electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process.
Ok there is minimum amp flow !!!
There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. !!!
Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are re-allocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated. Here he talks that OH- ions are electrons and the charged atoms are the H+ [/size][/font]
Well
During the pulsing the water ions are attracted to their respective opposite polarity plate and when the gate acts they come back to reform by impact of ions and as such the H+ become neutralized and become gas...
Basically the important is to charge the water up to high volts and than let it discharge by it self and than the gas will be generated.
I think the Gate is very important. To reach the resonant action the inductor must be able to develop a second high voltage pulse with the only 1 ma for say that is flowing thru it and its discharge time constant must be matched so with the real impedance of the circuit considering the water losses. Than when high voltage is reached the gate is applied cause you must let it discharge to let the gas to be generated. This way he don't need to use high amperage. Makes sense. I think the coils in this case must be of a value to make the electrical resonance at higher frequency possible so you can hit water times faster than its time constant.
From the way he described seems to me that the bath being isolated seems to me with what i read in a patent about recycling of nuclear waste. In the patent they say that if you charge the radioactive material to -600kv its life time become very small cause the colombian forces of the electrons kind of absorb and dissipate the energy.
So what i'm saying is that maybe meyer added another source of very high voltage to the cell isolated from everything. Only one wire. The other wire connected to the outside of the bath maybe a sheet of copper that surround the policarbonate tube. The greater the capacitance the greater will be the charge into the water. MAn This makes lot of sense " In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath; "
You cannot extract electrons from the water bath if you have connections only between two plates inside the bath.
OH BOY THIS IS GETING GOOD
So maybe the thing is that he pulses low voltage between the tubes but he charge the water bath in relation to something static to add charge to the water.
The primary coil of the torroid is subject to a 50% duty cycle pulse. The torroidal pulsing coil provides a voltage step-up from the pulse generator in excess of five times, although the relative amount of step-up is determined by pre-selected criteria for a particular application. As the stepped-up pulse enters first inductor (formed from 100 turns of 24 gauge wire 1 inch in diameter), an electromagnetic field is formed around the inductor, voltage is switched off when the pulse ends, and the field collapses and produces another pulse of the same polarity; i.e., another positive pulse is formed where the 50% duty cycle was terminated. Thus, a double pulse frequency is produced; however, in a pulse train of unipolar pulses, there is a brief time when pulses are not present.By being so subjected to electrical pulses in the circuit of FIG. 1, water confined in the volume that includes the capacitor plates takes on an electrical charge that is increased by a step charging phenomenon occurring in the water capacitor. Voltage continually increases (to about 1000 volts and more) and the water molecule starts to elongate.The pulse train is then switched off; the voltage across the water capacitor drops to the amount of charge that the water molecules have taken on, i.e. voltage is maintained across the charged capacitor. The pulse train is then reapplied.Because a voltage potential applied to a capacitor can perform work, the higher the voltage potential, the more work is performed by a given capacitor. In an optimum capacitor that is wholly non-conductive, zero (0) current flow will occur across the capacitor. Thus, in view of an idealized capacitor circuit, the object of the water capacitor circuit is to prevent electron flow through the circuit, i.e. such as occurs by electron flow or leakage through a resistive element that produces heat. Electrical leakage in water will occur, however, because of some residual conductivity and impurities or ions that may be otherwise present in the water. Thus, the water capacitor is preferably chemically inert. An electrolyte is not added to the water.In the isolated water bath, the water molecule takes on charge, and the charge increases. The object of the process is to switch off the co-valent bonding of the water molecule and interrupt the sub-atomic force, i.e. the electrical force or electromagnetic force, that binds the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to form a molecule so that the hydrogen and oxygen separate.Because an electron will only occupy a certain electron shell (the shells are well known) the voltage applied to the capacitor affects the electrical forces inherent in the co-valent bond. As a result of the charge applied by the plates, the applied force becomes greater than the force of the co-valent bonds between the atom of the water molecule; and the water molecule becomes elongated. When this happens, the time share ratio of the electrons between the atoms and the electron shells is modified.In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath; electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process. There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are re-allocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated.In the process, the electrical resonance may be reached at all levels of voltage potential. The overall circuit is characterized as a "resonant charging choke" circuit which is an inductor in series with a capacitor that produces a resonant circuit. [SAMS Modern Dictionary of Electronics, Rudolff Garff, .COPYRGT. 1984, Howard W. Sams & Co. (Indianapolis, Ind.), page 859.]Such a resonant charging choke is on each side of the capacitor. In the circuit, the diode acts as a switch that allows the magnetic field produced in the inductor to collapse, thereby doubling the pulse frequency and preventing the capacitor from discharging. In this manner a continuous voltage is produced across the capacitor plates in the water bath; and the capacitor does not discharge. The water molecules are thus subjected to a continuously charged field until the breakdown of the co-valent bond occurs.As noted initially, the capacitance depends on the dielectric properties of the water and the size and separation of the conductive elements forming the water capacitor.