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Stan’s Legacy

AC electrolysis

Started by unknown · · 49 posts · last reply 27 June 2010

  1. Steve

    #1 ·

    Can it be done?
    How efficient is this?
    How does watermols react on such a system?

    Please dump here your opinion.

    br
    Steve

    attachment_4707 electrode.jpg

  2. haithar

    #2 · date not recorded

    i think it's of course possible, but the losses due to the much too high voltage are enormous. it's simple current electrolysis, but both hydrogen and oxygen are produced at the electrodes which is not the case with dc.

  3. Dankie

    #3 · date not recorded

    It seems like this is the next way to go , RF and reactance and all the impedance stuff only happens with AC . I am past the VIC with diode at this point .

    This is not what puharich or Stephen was doing .

  4. haithar

    #4 · date not recorded

    It seems like this is the next way to go , RF and reactance and all the impedance stuff only happens with AC . I am past the VIC with diode at this point .

    This is not what puharich or Stephen was doing .
    Reactance only happens with not-DC. Not only AC but also pulsed DC obviously. And impedance matching is just optimizing a circuit for minimal losses and maximum power or ruling out waveerrors in cables (reflexion and so on).

  5. Logic

    #5 · date not recorded

    I have tried to visualise what happens at the interface between the electrodes and water:

    For a negative DC electrode:
    A water molecule gains an electon from the electrode.
    The enables 1 H atom to overcome the electronegativity of the water molicule and split off.
    This leaves a neg. OH- ion in contact with the negativly charged plate.
    As both are negative the OH- ion is repelled away from the electrode at extremely high speed.
    Now there are billions of water molicules in the way, which the ion bumps into.
    This causes the the kenetic energy of the ion to be changed into heat in the electrolyte.

    Now picture what would happen If the electrode could be changed to positive extremly fast, before the negative ion leaves, or moves too far away:
    The negative charge would be stripped off, adding power to the setup.
    An extra electron would also be taken away; making a OH+ ion and perhaps splitting it into O and H?

    So the question becomes:
    How fast does the OH- ion move away from / break contact with, the negative electrode and thus how high does the AC frequency have to be to present a positve surface to said negative ion before this happens?



    From the link above it would seem that the ion moves away at an initial speed of around 2 million miles
    in a minute!?

    From this one can deduce that your AC frequency has to be insanely high for you to see any advantages to using AC.

    Or perhaps the OH- ion bounces off the closest water molicule at a certain frequency and would then hit the electrode again if it were + at the right time?

     ???

    So; whats the highest frequency AC one can produce?
     :)

  6. Dankie

    #6 · date not recorded

    Well in the patent app if those values shown are truthful , Stephen was using 600 hz main freq , but his cell ringing inductive kicks looked like 20 times that or more . It looks a bit like what stevie was having with his chips and what I see with a 555 with an inductive probe .

    He uses 3 tubes ,remember , he also mentions something about "crossing the barrier" , he mentionned that in the interview and in the petent , he said what Stan did was figure out "a" way for the electrons to cross the barrier ??? ... I still am studying all his words to the letter .

    Something about matching the electrical wavelenght of the electrodes , impedance matching of the water bath ( adaptive rf impedance matching ??) , and ringing effect ... All pretty straightforward from the looks of it lol ... At leats I know what I am hunting

    Very touchy and complex eletrical and physical phenomenon but I am up for it , I think I can handle this eletrical stuff .

  7. Steve

    #7 · date not recorded

    Logic,

    How high do you wanna go in frequency?
    I think it can go up in ghz if you want to.

    Steve

  8. Newguy

    #8 ·

    I have tried to visualise what happens at the interface between the electrodes and water:

    For a negative DC electrode:
    A water molecule gains an electon from the electrode.
    The enables 1 H atom to overcome the electronegativity of the water molicule and split off.
    This leaves a neg. OH- ion in contact with the negativly charged plate.
    As both are negative the OH- ion is repelled away from the electrode at extremely high speed.
    Now there are billions of water molicules in the way, which the ion bumps into.
    This causes the the kenetic energy of the ion to be changed into heat in the electrolyte.

    Now picture what would happen If the electrode could be changed to positive extremly fast, before the negative ion leaves, or moves too far away:
    The negative charge would be stripped off, adding power to the setup.
    An extra electron would also be taken away; making a OH+ ion and perhaps splitting it into O and H?

    So the question becomes:
    How fast does the OH- ion move away from / break contact with, the negative electrode and thus how high does the AC frequency have to be to present a positve surface to said negative ion before this happens?



    From the link above it would seem that the ion moves away at an initial speed of around 2 million miles
    in a minute!?

    From this one can deduce that your AC frequency has to be insanely high for you to see any advantages to using AC.

    Or perhaps the OH- ion bounces off the closest water molicule at a certain frequency and would then hit the electrode again if it were + at the right time?

     ???

    So; whats the highest frequency AC one can produce?
     :)

    Stan Meyer referanced a decent patent ... lemme find that and see if it helps  brb

  9. Newguy

    #9 ·

    well it was Prestridge I was thinking about...   I'd say yall done read that anyway being Stan referanced to it, not really to do with ac electrolysis.Horace Heffner done some expieriments with AC electrolysis.Prestidge seemed to play on the works of Cotrell... maybe worth reading his work ??

  10. Dankie

    #10 · date not recorded

    Newguy ,

    Around here if you wanna pass on information about a document , you link the document . Better yet , you read the document and take pics of he important quotes you think are relevant and helpful for our research .

  11. Newguy

    #11 · date not recorded

    Newguy ,

    Around here if you wanna pass on information about a document , you link the document . Better yet , you read the document and take pics of he important quotes you think are relevant and helpful for our research .

    Prestridge was referanced by Stan Meyers,Cottrell was referanced by Prestidge.... I dont have referance links ,sorry Dankie.I also do not have referance links to Horace Heffner sorry Dankie,if I had referance links I would link them but I dont.... sorry Dankie.

  12. Logic

    #12 · date not recorded

    Logic,

    How high do you wanna go in frequency?
    I think it can go up in ghz if you want to.

    Steve

     :)
    Thx Steve, but my post is supposed to be more thought provoking than anything else.
    I simply wanted the get people thinking on the microscopic level about what is happening to the water molicules in a cell.

    At the moment I have 2 lathes, a milling machine, and a whole lot of other engineering equipment stuffed to the ceiling in a single garage!  So no building or experimenting for me untill I get the stuff ito a big enough premisis.

    However:  Let me be the 1st to admit that I know very little about electronics and circuit boards etc.
    So any info and diagrams are welcome thx.
     :)

  13. handyandy

    #13 · date not recorded

    I thought this would relative to the topic.

    I did an experiment last night since someone told me AC electrolysis doesn't work so I had to prove it to myself using Puharich's patent as a guide (sort of).

    I had gotten a low watt inverter circuit to play with a while ago to replace the one that burst into flames previously.  It had a short somewhere in the tubular array I was using.  Poof.

    Anyway the circuit came without a center tap transformer.  One wire connects positive and the other 2 wires switch to ground.  I connected the positive to all the outside tubes and one ground wire each to half of the set of inside electrodes. I used one diode after the positive between the inverter and wfc.  It worked but not especially impressively and different coil configurations except for one would trigger a breaker in the circuit.  At least no flames this time.  I'm now considering daisy chaining the pwm that I have inbetween the inverter and the wfc.  Fingers crossed.

    Andy

  14. Steve

    #14 · date not recorded

    I thought this would relative to the topic.

    I did an experiment last night since someone told me AC electrolysis doesn't work so I had to prove it to myself using Puharich's patent as a guide (sort of).

    I had gotten a low watt inverter circuit to play with a while ago to replace the one that burst into flames previously.  It had a short somewhere in the tubular array I was using.  Poof.

    Anyway the circuit came without a center tap transformer.  One wire connects positive and the other 2 wires switch to ground.  I connected the positive to all the outside tubes and one ground wire each to half of the set of inside electrodes. I used one diode after the positive between the inverter and wfc.  It worked but not especially impressively and different coil configurations except for one would trigger a breaker in the circuit.  At least no flames this time.  I'm now considering daisy chaining the pwm that I have inbetween the inverter and the wfc.  Fingers crossed.

    Andy

    Very good Andy. Keep on testing! I like that very much  :)
    Good to hear you control the flames, this time... ;)

    About your test, i think it all came back to old electrolysis....
    I think the schematic of Puharich canonly work with thaty special ceramic stuff he used on his electrode...


    Steve

  15. handyandy

    #15 · date not recorded

    Hi Steve,

    I reconfigured everything so center is positive and outer is ground path.  Haven't daisy chained the pwm yet I need some connectors but the inverter circuit is working switching at 60 hz or thereabouts.  Center is charged and 3 of 6 tubes get discharged back and forth in a circular motion.  It's similar to what Dr. Cramton is doing except with one phase instead of 3.  Patrick Kelly updated chapter10.pdf if anyone is interested.  Bifilar coil is connected between the inverter negative switches and outer tubes in parallel if it makes any difference.  I tried it in anti-parallel but the inverter didn't seem to like it.  Watching temperature now.

    Regards,
    Andy

  16. handyandy

    #16 ·

    Ok temperature climbed from 70F to 100F over around 5 hours.  Interestingly the bifilar coil I was complaining about being hot in Bubz's thread running from a pwm is cool and it's buzzing.  The diode is still hot but not as much; I can keep a finger on it without getting a blister burn.  Tubes are wired parallel so each set of 3 is getting 12-14 volts and switching between the sets at around 60 hz.  I don't see any steam yet.  Production seems less than running with the pwm.

    Andy

  17. haithar

    #17 ·

    if you use more tubes in series to get ~2V at each they won't get hot while getting the same current for electrolysis.

  18. handyandy

    #18 ·

    Hi Haither I have an idea on that which I'd like to try sometime having to do with endothermic electrolysis.  I didn't have much luck previously on stringing tubes in series so I've stuck to parallel wiring for now.

    I wasn't able to daisy chain a pwm in the circuit I think I'd need a dc solid state relay.  Been meaning to pick one up for a while.  All in all results have been interesting but not earth shattering no increase in production more or less the same and the usual increase of temperature over time.  Would still like to investigate water circulation in the cell but need a 3/8" pipe tap.  There's about 2 feet of snow on the ground outside so I missed my time window.

    Andy

  19. handyandy

    #19 · date not recorded

    Just to update I did manage to wire tubes in series with voltage around 6-7 volts; temperature stabilized from 70F to 90F but production was diminished.  I then tried to run half the tubes via pwm and induce voltage using a bifilar coil but got no induction.  pwm is rated at max 3 khz.  I think that's it.  Happy Holidays to everyone.

    Andy

  20. handyandy

    #20 · date not recorded

    I wanted to reacquaint myself with molecular oxygen and came across this in wikipedia's entry:

    "Oxygen gas can also be produced through electrolysis of water into molecular oxygen and hydrogen. DC electricity must be used: if AC is used, the gases in each limb consist of hydrogen and oxygen in the explosive ratio 2:1. Contrary to popular belief, the 2:1 ratio observed in the DC electrolysis of acidified water does not prove that the empirical formula of water is H2O unless certain assumptions are made about the molecular formulae of hydrogen and oxygen themselves."

    and here I thought use of AC would generate steam.  It may be the wikipedia entry is in error.  I don't know.

    The reason I was looking into it was I was wondering where the electrons were coming from in a hydrogen fuel cell when H2 is combined with atmospheric O2.  If 2 molecules of each electrically neutral gas is combined to form 2 molecules of electrically neutral H2O molecule where are the electrons produced coming from?

    Andy

  21. TonyWoodside

    #21 ·

    AC Electrolysis is very possible, what do  you think Stan Meyer's was doing!!!  He used a digital circuit to produce an AC waveform across the WFC.  That's the reason his chokes where connected 180 degrees apart from the cell, so that it would produce an AC output.

    -Tony Woodside-

  22. CrazyEwok

    #22 ·

    Anyone know where i can sign up to get 5 cents for everytime some claims that Stan Meyers was doing something specific???

  23. TonyWoodside

    #23 ·

    You dont think thats what he was doing? I know what Im talking about here, Im an electronics engineer, what about you?

  24. CrazyEwok

    #24 ·

    i'm an 8ft3in 900 pound biker with black belts in 7 different martial arts... like everyone else on the internet why?

  25. TonyWoodside

    #25 ·

    I know for a fact the Stan's system produced an AC type waveform...Ive seen the actual waveform that Stan was making with his pulsing system.  I would share a picture of this waveform, but I cant at this time, maybe sometime later in the future  ;)