Logic

Test.....
Seems to work, Logic.
Otherwise, email me the text so i can try...
That way i can see what its doing...

Its a subject that needs more investigation....

Steve

The info on octane rating, ignition energy, quench distance etc, is not sucked out of my thumb Steve.
I will find the info and link it, but not now.
Need to get a car running 1st anyway! 

This is just an idea that perhaps someone will test.
(Is ther a better place to post this?)

Dissolve exhaust gas in water and see how it does as an electrolyte:

CO2 + H2O ? H2CO3 (Carbonic acid) + dissolved CO2  (This is a weak acid)
C + H2O = CO (burns) + H2
Dissolved O2 (O2 will displace air: a good thing)


Thats about it; if you have a 3 way cat.
Without you also get:

NOx + H2O = 4 HNO3 (nitric acid) via a long process that includes HNO2, HNO3 and NO
CO + H2O = HCOOH (formic acid) + dissolved CO  (This is a weak acid)
Unburned HCs + H2O = (Didnt someone test a mixture of fuel and water in a cell and get good results?)

You will also get a small bit of hydrogen sulfide which dissolves in water to make a solution that is weakly acidic.

Perhaps this devil's brew is by some fluke the ideal electrolyte and gives great gass production and cleans up our exhaust a little! 
What exactly the gas will consist of is a damn good question! 
Certainly H2 and O2.
Perhaps CO (burns)
Possibly Nitrogen. 

You may end up with carbon on the electrodes, which may or may not be good.
The gass hopefully will contain CO. (burns)

A simple test by bubbling exhaust through a bucket of water and using it in a cell would be interesting.
No idea how fast the solutes will be used up or how much of each will be in solution. 

So what do you think??

http://mattson.creighton.edu/H2S/H2S_Info.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_carbon_monoxide_a_acid_or_alkaline_solution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide#Atmospheric_presence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid

Wouter tested it here:
http://waterfuelforall.co.za/waterfuel-booster-frame.htm
Said it stank him scared! 

Please give them a message from me Slick:

"Stick your F'ing car up your F'ing arse"

Somender Singh Grooves are about creating more turbulance in and around the spark-plug gap, as well as an ignition path into the squish area.

Gadgetmen Grooves are about creating turbulance near the butterfly valve in a throttle body or carburator. 

Although interesting, as the principle behind the two different types of grooves is so different; I feel that the subject of Gadgetmen Grooves requires its own thread?

My results are subjective, as I said Najman.   

You are correct in that no one is going to pull their cylinder head just to try this. 
My head needed to be skimmed before replacing the gasget.
I also had the valves reground and lapped.
I also did a little port matching at the port - seat interface.

You will learn that I research my pet interests very well.
I decided to give it a try after reading pages like this:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=66779&highlight=singh

I believe this should work in a similar way to using H or plasm sparks:
The mixture burns faster and you can adjust that burn to take place at the optimal crank angle.
More of the mixture is burned rather than wasted.

I figured that if it did not work/help I would have lost nothing, as long as I made sure not to leave any sharp points or edges where pre ignition could happen.
This is under "Low Cost Devices"   

Google will give you plenty of info on this.

http://www.somender-singh.com/

I cut my own version of these grooves im my cylinder head when I had it off due to a leaky gasket.
I got lower engine temperatures and an increase in power and torque. (especially at low revs)
This translates into lower fuel consumption when not using the extra oomph.

These claims are subjective of-course, but a quick search of forums will show that others are getting the same results.
Especially in 'hot' modded engines.

This is a great fuel saving mod and the cost is Zero!
 

Haroldcr

The hydrogen does displace far more air than fuel does.
However it is only the oxygen in the air that is usefull; so displacing air with Oxygen is a good thing! 

( 78.something % of air is Nitrogen. This is useless to an engine and just causes NOx pollution. If you could come up with a way of filtering out Nitrogen and the other gasses in air, so that ony Oxygen is left; You would be able to use an engine that is 20% the size of your current one and still get the same power with much less pollution.  )

Now volumes:
Different gasses, as a general rule, take up the the same volume at a given pressure.
Now H2O is, by its chemical name; 2 parts H and one part O.
Therefore; for any given volume of HHO two thirds of the gas will be hydrogen.   

Its all perfectly ...er... logical when you think about it! 

[Hi Logic,

Yes you are a clever person. Its good thinking  you are doing.
For me this heating option is to get better volume filling in the cylinder. Maybe its doing others things as wel....

Steve

Like displace the 78% Nitrogen, that is in air, that is useless to the combustion process?
The combining of N with O produces NOx in an endothermic reaction.
ie: it robs power from the engine to produce greenhouse gasses! 

There was a big discussion on Wouter's forum about not being able to compress HHO because it will blow up or something?
BB was a big contributer to the thread.

Quote from: carbidetip on October 07, 2009, 13:38:29 pm

Then you lose power.

True and exactly what i want it to do....

AHA!! 

I think I see your plan Steve.
If you have a HHO supply under pressure; heating it (with waste heat) will increase the pressure/volume.
If you have enough pressure/volume the piston will be driven down on the intakestroke by said pressure!
This will give you an extra small power stroke!
It will also overfill the cylinder, like a turbo, compensating for volumetric efficiency losses on the original power stroke and negating all my previous arguements.
Heating the H2 will also change more of it into Monatomic H.
This gives a further increase in volume and increases the energy given off by igniting it.

Very Clever!
Or is it me being very clever!?? 

The fact that H has a higher octane rating (does not pre-ignite at higher compression ratios or in hotter conbustion chambers) means that ther should be no issues with knock.
You may have to beaf of your cooling though.

There is no way, at this point, of producing enough HHO onboard, but there is no reason why one could not set up a wind, solar  and waste/p**p powered cell at home. 
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/
There are cells out there that produce HHO and pressurise it at the same time; easily found by Googling.
The tech to fill gass bottles is commercially available.

Ok, let me try to convince you here. If you have HHO, that means you have the ideal mix of H and O. We dont want more oxygen because the mix will not be ideal anymore. That mix of H and O is like 2.5 times more powerfull then a basic petrol/air mix.
If you use petrol drops you MUST add ambient air for couple of reasons.
1. need of oxygen for the burning process and volume
2. need of nitrogen for volume (it automatically adjusts burnrates too)

1 and 2 provide a volume with a certain burnrate/power
HHO has with less volume the same power with a faster burnrate
So what to do to match HHO to a current engine?
Well, we can mix the HHO with ambient air, which i did, and you are getting lots of nitrogen in the mix, which creates more volume and less HH per volume.
But what happens too, is that the ideal mix of H and O is gone because of the extra oxygen.

Thats why i think we should heat up HHO. Make the gas expand 2.5 times. You get 2.5 time more volume with less H and O, but still in the ideal mix for burning.

 
Steve

I understand all that and the ideal gass law etc Steve.
Let me try put it another way:
You fill a balloon with HHO.
The Balloon contains a fixed number of atoms of H & O.
Heating the balloon makes it expand/increase in volume.
Cooling the balloon makes it contract/decrease in volume.
But you still have exactly the same number of H & O atoms.
Those atoms oxidise/explode to H2O when you add a spark.
The size of the explosion/energy released is the same no matter the size of the balloon.
The engine turns maybe 20% of that explosion into usefull work.
20% of say 100KJ is 20KJ irrespective of revs, load or anything else.
The only way to get the engine to produce more power is to get more HHO into it.
The only way to fit more HHO into a fixed volume/the cylinder at a fixed pressure is to decrease the temperature.
 

Now you want to increase the volume of a fixed mass/weight of HHO so that you have more liters per minute to feed to the engine; so that you dont have to add Air.
That will work, but you will get no more power out of the engine, even if the revs increase, as the same mass of HHO is still being used.


I think Stan lowered the burn rate of his HHO by adding steam to the engine:
Steam and HHO go into cylinder on intake stroke.
Steam and HHO compressed in cylinder on compression stroke.
Compressing a gass will increase the temperature of the gass.
So feeding in steam at just the right temp  will mean that the compression stroke will increase the temperature of the steam to the point where thermal decomposition takes place at TDC/just the right time;;; with the help of the burning of the small amount of HHO...
Not all the steam will be pyrolysed to HHO and that will slow the burn rate down.
(Using air/nitrogen forms NOx in an endothermic reaction. (heat used up) Using steam causes expansion/power)


There are 2 ways to heat water with electricity:
The way we are used to is to heat a resistor with electricity and then use the hot resistor to heat the water.
The second way is to send ac into water:
The water has a resistance just like a kettle element has resistance and thus you get the resistive heating just as you would in a kettle.
But you are now also imparting kenitic energy to ions in the water.
These ions bump into other water molecules at very hight speed and the kenitic energy is translated into extra heat energy; over and above what you get from resistance alone.
I think Stans 180 out of phase heater was this simple AC to electrodes heating of the water.
The reason he used electricity and not waste exhaust heat alone is so that he could get precise control over the temperature of the water; so that it would pyrolyse at the right time/TDC. 

This methode of heating water is said to be over unity.

For a given mass of HHO, at a given pressure; the volume that the gass takes up will increase with temp.
The mass of HHO depends on the number of atoms.
This does not increase with temperature.
in fact; it means that you will be able to get less HHO into a given volume (engine cylinder) as you increase its temperature.
Less atoms of HHO in the cylinder means less energy released from burning them = less power.

Engine tuners go to great lengths to keep the air going into an engine as cold as possible. (intercoolers, cold air intakes, etc)
This means that you get more oxygen into each cylinder.
More oxygen means you can add more fuel to burn with it; which gives more power.

BMW's hydrogen car produces less power when running on H (rather than petrol) because the required H takes up much more space in the cylinders than petrol.
Space that could be taken up by oxygen...

Its also the reason the geet may work better with an intercooler.
An intercooler that cools the gas, but not so much as to cause any vapours to condense.

You need more atoms of H & O; not the same number of atoms taking up more volume/space.

There is no getting away from needing to produce more HHO with; either less energy or waste energy.
Then cool it down as much as possible to get more into each cylinder to get the max power from that engine.

 

Good find Steve

The octane rating of H is around 130.
This means that the chances of it igniting from the heat of compression are MUCH lower than with Gasolene.
Increasing the compression ratio of the engine dramatically, or higher turbo boost, will be possible.
This will improve the efficiency of a hydrogen engine, or partial H engine, a lot!
(Increasing compression will allow the use of less H; something that has not been tried or tested in this type of community)


The energy required to ignite H is dramatically lower than that of gasolene however:
This means that any hot spots that were not issues in a gasolene engine may well become issues in a H (or partial H) engine.
Extra care will be needed to round off any sharp edges in the compustion chamber.

This goes hand in hand with the quench distance described in your document, that keeps metal surfaces from melting.
The quench distance of H is about 40% that of gasolene:  0.5mm as opposed to 1.2mm approximately.
This will increase the chances of hot spots dramatically.
It will also cause more heat to make it into the sleeve and head etc, which means that a bigger radiator might be required.


One also has to consider the extra Oxygen that will be in the cylinder from HHO:
This O will displace air; which is  about 78 % Nitrogen, and 2% other stuff.
So  if you displace 1 litre of air with O2 you will have 800 cc more burnable O2!
Nitrogen combines with air during the combustion stroke in an endothermic reaction. (heat used up)
This robs power from the engine, but also keeps temps within design specs.

The best way to get HHO to act more like air in a std. engine is probably the addition of water mist, as already used in Turbocharged  Gasolene Engines, etc.

Sounds good Steve

You may want to toss one of these into the bubbler to negate any  issues with the low volitility parts of the fuel/oil/etc.

http://www99.shopping.com/xPO-Alpine-Alpine-Super-Power-Pond-Fogger-Mister-5-Jets

http://www.rexresearch.com/cottell/cottell.htm

Hope someone finds this info usefull. 

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Negative_resistance
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Arc_converter?t=2.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Tunnel_diode
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Avalanche_diode

I dont understand Steve;  The whole point of producing amonia would be to get it into a compact form that can be stored in a 'fuel' tank.
Its a damn good idea if you use solar, wind or hydroelectric power to produce H and then NH3 which is easily handled in the same fashion as petrol.

I see no point in producing amonia on-board except for the fact that H takes up a lot of room in the combustion chamber which decreases power, relative to a petrol powered engine??

Interesting stuff Steve
As always its all about the Joules per Liter; not per Kilogram.

The question is:
How do you get your 3 H's to hook up with 1 N?
How do you figure Stan used to produce and use NH3?
 

If you Google for:
water dielectic breakdown voltage
you get a lot of confusing info.

It seems that the breakdown voltage is in the region of 10 400 Volts per mm for pure water.
Thats a lot more than the 1000 Volts per mm for air.

This guy happens to be one of my very good friends. The jacket has absolutely nothing to do with the photo!

This photo was not suppost to be posted, I will contact him about this and see who leeked this one.

If the jacket had nothing to do with the photo; why is the photo "not supposed to be posted" and why are you pissed that the photo was posted 

I dont know you at all ... Slick (why Slick?) but this post of yours sets of my alarm bells big time!
I am sure I am not the only one; so I suggest you explain!