Steve

How to make HHO cells more efficient.


Its all about increasing the options for the ions and electrons to collide. Besides the electrode space , electrode material, electrode size and type of electrolyte there are more options:

1. Use of RF radiation.
2. Use of Ultra Violet / infrared waves.

Its known as radiolysis. How to implement such a system in our waterfuelcells? The early radio transmitters used a sparkgap for creating radiowaves. We also know that water absorbs waves in the Ultra Violet spectrum. We are lucky. Spark gaps do transmitte radio waves and UV waves!
Now we need to design a cell that is doing basic electrolysis and is using sparks at the same time. It might be even needed to use a 50% duty cycle on both systems, so they don’t interfere with each other.
Meaning: first 50% duty dc on the electrodes and in the off time we create sparks.

The cell can look like this.
 
Steve

Thanks Brian.

I ll guess i will try two cells to see what will happen. a small one and later a bigger one.
Do you have any idea in which range and size the resonant coil should be?

Cheers

So, now the million dollar question.
Is a big cell easier to get into some kind of ac resonance or a small cell?
Both Meyer and Puharich used sparkplug size cells.....
So maybe...

AM is a dynamic pulse of the same frequency, is it.
The radiowave sinewave has a specific frequency, but the top and bottum change in highed.
Just like an broken alternator can produce if you would modulate the rotor coil....

I always have been a fan of sinewaves because whole mother natur excists out of it....
In that perspective....
See what a wipe does when you hit with it.
Maybe we have to hit the watermolecules hard with the righ wipe

Brian, you stated that we have to see the wfc as a non pol capacitor.
To use a coil in parallel.
This means you say that we can create hho with an ac signal?

Hi Lektor,

As far as we know, a drycell is the best cell for a normal price.
They come in many shapes. Efficiencies from zero to 150% according to faraday.

Nobody has shown a proper working Meyer cell doing higher efficiencies then the drycells, till sofar.

Hopes this helps.

Steve

Here are some results of my tubecell:

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,85.30.html


Steve

Steve, was the gas and or bubbles passed through a magnetic field first? If not would you mind repeating the experiment again? Pictorially in the patent Meyers shows the atoms taking on a magnetic field or stronger field after passing through a set of magnets N S orientation. There is something else that sticks in my brain, that is Meyers says from here on think of the atoms individually not as a mass. I don't know if that is a clue. Correct me if I'm wrong. Hydrogen is diamagnetic and oxygen is paramagnetic. Food for thought. As to inviting this fellow to come on the board that would be great if he would. I don't think he would. He mentioned he has been on some of these threads and and caught flack over some issues concerning Meyers back story. He also said that when he tried to give clues to how the wfc tech worked he was dealing with some ego issues so he stopped posting. He did say the technology was real. The epg should be straight forward I think so any way. It looks like when he discovered it he filed that US patent with the weird embodiment looks like some sort of electric motor with a pulley on the bottom. I think he was trying to sneak in in under the radar. This fellow might be full of it. Show me. I asked him about the one way valve shown in the Canadian patent he said there isn't one. But to me it seems that upon the collapse of the field in the inductor it would pull the gas back. Unless the field is much stronger during the energizing than the bemf.  Due to velocity its just a loss associated with the system. After the mass is moving it doesn't matter. Beyond pulsed? Now what does that mean?  I have a few thoughts on that. Although I'm not really qualified to speak about electronics. What comes to mind is an RLC circuit where the pump is the L portion. Or could be a magnetic standing wave. Any thoughts on that? My new build will be finished today. Still haven't figured how I'm going to pulse it. I'm thinking about using my bedini motor. Haithar put the link up for me on misters Thanks by the way, I understand I need to put a flywheel diode parallel with the inductor to stop it from damaging the mosfet. I have different diodes switching, rectifying , old microwave diodes. I will try and look later online for one. The Guy at radio shack just looked at me funny. Hey its all Greek to me too.
Take care, Rami.

Rami,
 
I tried it with and without external magnets.....
 
 
 
 
 

Steve,  I know your right, without even looking at the pressure this morning. It was just kind of weird that for about 3 hours it equalize at15.5psi . The same pressure of the initial amount if nitrogen I added. Since there was no additional energy added to the system I wouldn't expect the recombination to occur at such a rate.  Yea I knew I had a minor leak. No problem, it will work for the tests I want to run. Has anyone else heard of or built an SM EPG?  I haven't seen anything on any threads. If Myers is not a liar or a fraud which I don't believe he is either. Then you all need to read the claims of the patent. In my opinion this is as great or better than hydroxy.  Sure seems more easily done as well. If you haven't read those patents you should. OK can anyone help me with the electronic side of things? Thanks RamiKatzs.

I had a discussion with Sebosfato on the EPG......
We both tried to get any magnetic reaction in the HHO but didnt get any any spike whatsoever on the scope with multiple sorts of coils.
Tried with AC and rectified DC on the coils.
Lots of HHO or little HHO.
Nothing.
 
If anything should work, then it might be water that is split by electrolysis. That seems to react on magnetic fields.
 
 

Thanks Dankie for your concern. I should know the answer, for some reason 60-80 psi is in my head. I don't want to find out the hard way. I'm in a safe range right now but later today I would like to double my pressure to 60 psi. Anyone else input is appreciated.
Rami.

`
 
Hi, I had HHO in my vessel at at least 80 PSI.....
Of course you dont want any spike in there....
Not sure what the exact max pressure is.
 
Steve

# Introduction: It is possible to generate hydrogen by conventional DC water electrolysis, but this is undesirable for enviromental reasons if the electrical energy for the electrolysis is produced in thermal power stations from fossil fuel because of the generation of carbon dioxide. Fuel cells are promising and various systems are being studied worldwide. The generation of carbon dioxide during hydrogen generation through natural gas for fuel cells can be reduced compared with thermal power stations, but carbon dioxide is still generated. Hydrogen generation by photo-catalysis is preferable but the process efficiency is still very low for practical applications.


Recently, water electrolysis has been reconsidered as a promising method for hydrogen generation since the cost of electricity is decreasing, mainly as a result of wind-generated power. Hydroelectricity and nuclear power can be also used for water electrolysis without generation of carbon dioxide. Even though the electricity cost is falling, it is known that the plant cost for water electrolysis by DC power still dominates a large part of the hydrogen production cost. It is therefore desirable to find a new method of generating hydrogen from water at lower cost. In the present work, we have examined for the first time the applicability of an ultra-short-pulse power supply for water electrolysis.


# Principle: In the conventional DC electrolysis of water, hydrogen is generated as a result of electron transfer from the cathode electrode to adsorbed hydrogen ions on the electrode surface. This electrolysis occurs when the applied voltage between the anode and the cathode exceeds the water decomposition voltage of about 1.6V, the sum of the theoretical decomposition voltage of 1.23V at room temperature and the overvoltage of about 0.4V depending on electrode materials and other factors[1]. DC electrolysis is a diffusion limited process and the current flow in water is determined by the diffusion coefficient of ions. It is therefore difficult to increase the input power for a constant volume electrochemical cell without reduction in electrolysis efficiency.


We have applied an ultra-short pulsed power supply based on a static induction thyristor (SIThy), invented by Nishizawa et al. [2,3] and developed by Shimizu et al. [4,5], and an inductive energy storage (IES) circuit invented and developed by Iida et al. [6,7] and applied in several ways by Jiang et al. [8]. SIThys are Si devices with special structures for high power pulse generation and IES circuits are small-scaled circuits based on induction storage instead of conventional capacitor storage in order to use SIThys. We have applied SI thyristors developed in our laboratory to water electrolysis and found that water electrolysis occurs by a different mechanism from the conventional DC one.


When the ultra-short pulse voltage of less than seceral microseconds is applied to a water electrolysis bath, the voltage application is so fast neither the electric double layer nor the diffusion layer can be stably formed in the vicinity of electrodes.


The pulse width which is necessary for electrolysis without formation of the diffusion layer is estimated [9] to be:
Del.t<(1/4D).(Xad/X)2 (1)


Here, Del.t is the pulse width (s), D the diffusion coefficient (cm2 s-1), Xad the density of hydrogen ions on the cathode electrode (cm-2) and X (cm-3) is the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution. This equation was simply calculated under the assumption that the total amount of adsorbed ions, Xad, is equal to the diffusion layer thickness d (cm) multiplied by X, and d must be larger than the diffusion length (4D Delt.t)1/2 during the pulse application, considering that the pulse application duration must be shorter than the time necessary to fill the diffusion layer with hydrogen ions. From this equation, taking as D=2.3x10-5 cm2 s-1 for proton diffusion coefficient [1], X=6x1020 cm-3 for 1M for KOH solution and Xad=1015 cm-2 for platinum metal surface, the pulse width is estimated to be about 3 microsecond. This means that electrolysis occurs without forming the diffusion layer in the present work since the pulse width is one tenth of this critical 3 microsec.. It is also known that the time necessary for the formation of the stable electrical double layer is of the order of several tens of milliseconds [1]. It is therefore evident that the stable electrical double layer is not formed during the present ultra-short pulse application. Since an electric field as high as 2.6-47V cm-1 can be applied in the present work, the lack of formation of the stable electric double layer means that hydrogen ions can be moved faster than in conventional DC electrolysis. These different mechanisms that arise via ultra-short pulse application, leading to the absence of the diffusion layer and the stable electrical double layer, mau open the possibility of high capacity water electrolysis.


# Experimental: In order to examine the possibility of water electrolysis by ultra-short pulses, 3.41 of 1M KOH solution were put in an electrolysis bath. 3.3x9cm2 platinum plates were used as the anode and cathode. The distance between electrodes was set as 3 cm. The solution temperature was kept at 293 +-2 K during the experiment. A conventional DC power supply and an ultra-short pulse power supply were used for comparison. The ultra-short pulse power supply consisted of the IES circuit with a SIThy as shown in Figure1. Ultra-short pulses with a voltage pulse-width of about 300ns, with the secondary peak voltage rangin from 7.9 to 140V were applied to the electrochemical bath with the frequency of 2-25 kHz. The input power was changed by increasing the pulse frequency.


In the IES circuit (Figure1), the gate of the SIThy is connected to the anode through a diode. When the FET (Field Effect Transistor) is switched on, the current through the inductive coil (L1) gradually increases. When the FET is switched off at a certain current level, the current flow is instantly switched off and the inverse voltage Vp1 is induced through the coil (L1). This IES circuit is the simplest and most compact one yet reported for generating ultra-short pulses [6-8].






Fig.1. Ultra-short pulsed power supply circuit for water electrolysis based on the inductive energy storage (IES) circuit [6-7] with a static induction thyristor (SIThy).


In the case of water electrolysis using the above ultra-short pulse power, the water bath electrodes are connected to the secondary reactance L2 as seen in Figure1. The pulsed voltage Vp2 is induced in the secondary reactance L2, synchronized with the pulsed voltage Vp1 as seen in Figure2. In the first stage, when this secondary pulsed voltage is applied to the electrodes in the water bath, the bath acts as a quasi-capacitor since the pulse width is too short for ions in the bath to cause a current through the bath. This gives a very short pulsed current Ip2 in the circuit through the secondary coil (L2). This current is too rapid to be seen in the figure. The water bath is not a real capacitor since all electrons collected at the cathode are transferred to hydrogen ions and high voltage does not remain as in the case of conventional capacitors. After this pulsed voltage had been applied to the electrolysis bath, in the second stage, the current I2 flows through the circuit. This current flows very slowly as seen in the figure with several tens microseconds. Since the application of the pulsed voltage Vp2 was already terminated, this current flow I2 may not be due to electron transfer to hydrogen ions but ion transport in the bath, thus compensating the lack of hydrogen ions in the vicinity of the cathode electrode.


# Results and discussion: The hydrogen generation rate and its efficiency are plotted as a function of the input power between the electrodes in Figure3. In the case of DC power electrolysis, when the applied voltage is increased, the current increases so that hydrogen generation rate increases, but the efficiency compared with the ideal generation rate decreases from 40% at 2.2V to 8% at 12.6V. Here, the ideal generation rate was calculated from thermodynamical data [10], for the thermodynamical energy for hydrogen to be converted to room temperature water. The decrease in efficiency can be explained because an electron with high energy can only reduce one hydrogen ion so that the difference between the applied voltage and the decomposition voltage is dissipated as heat. Since the current itself is also increased by increasing the applied voltage, electrons which are not used for hydrogen reduction are also dissipated as heat.


Contrary to the case of DC power electrolysis, ultra-short power electrolysis shows a quite different behaviour. As seen in Figure3(a), in the case of DC electrolysis, the hydrogen generation rate was not proportional to the input power. It deviates from the ideal line. The hydrogen generation efficiency is calculated as the ratio of the real generation rate to the ideal hydrogen generation rate and it can be seen in Figure3(b) that the efficiency is largely decreased in the case of DC electrolysis. This decrease is mainly because the energy of most electrons is dissipated as heat.


In the case of pulse power, it is seen in Figure3(a) that the hydrogen generation rate is increased as the peak voltage is decreased. It should be noted, however, that the hydrogen generation rate increases as a function of the input power. This behaviour is quite different from the case of DC electrolysis. When the input power is increased by increasing the pulse frequency, the efficiency was not decreased in the case of high peak voltages, and was increased in the case of low peak voltages as seen in Figure3(b). This behaviour is contrary to the case of DC power. This increase of the efficiency for the case of low peak voltage may be because the energy dissipation is decreased since each electron has lower energy and the pulse waveform is sharper for low peak voltages. For these reasons, power can be efficiently consumed for electrolysis. This fact implies that the ultra-short power electrolysis is a promising method in which the power application can be increased even with an increase in electrolysis efficiency.


In the case of DC power, the electric field is always present. The electrical double layer is also present and the diffusion layer always exist. The current flow is therefore determined by the diffusion of ions with a driving force of ion concentration difference. When the applied voltage is increased, the efficiency decreases. In the cse of DC power, the power applicable for a certain volume of the electrolysis bath is therefore limited.






Fig.2. A typical example of pulse waveforms for the first and second stages. In the first stage, an ultra-short pulse with the width of about 300ns is applied. In the second stage, the current flows slowly.






Fig.3. Hydrogen generation rate (a) and its efficiency (b) as a function of the input power. In the case of pulsed power, various circuits with different voltage (Vp2), current (I2max) and frequency ((i)-(iv)) have been compared. The input power is the integration of the secondary voltage and current multiplied by the frequency. The ideal line was calculated from the thermodynamical energy for hydrogen to be converted to room temperature water. Hydrogen generation efficiencies in (b) were calculated as the hydrogen generation rate divided by the ideal hydrogen generation rate at the same input power.


In the case of ultra-short pulsed power, the electric field is applied for only a very short time less than several microseconds which is much shorter than the time necessary for the formation of the constant electric double layer. By the application of the ultra-short pulse, electrons are collected on the surface of the cathode electrode as in a capacitor. The electrons gathered however are quickly transferred to hydrogen ions for hydrogen generation so that electrons do not remain in the electrode as in a conventional capacitor. After this electron transfer, the current I2 flows slowly as shown in Figure2, probably due to the ion diffusion in the electrolysis bath.


From the above considerations, it can be concluded that the electrolysis mechanism for ultra-short pulse power is very different from that of DC electrolysis. DC electrolysis is based on electrical double layer formation and is a diffusion-limited process, while ultra-short pulse power electrolysis is based on the strong electric field application and the electron transfer limited process. This difference seems to be very important for the practical and industrial application of ultra-short power electrolysis since the electrolysis power can be increased without decreasing the efficiency.


# Conclusion: We have shown in this preliminary work how an ultra-short power supply, consisting of a SIThy and an IES circuit, can be applied to water electrolysis for hydrogen generation. It has been found that an ultra-short pulse of about 300ns could generate hydrogen gas. It was also found that power could be increased without decreasing the electrolysis efficiency. The present results point to the possibility that water electrolysis by ultra-short pulsed power occurs under the electron transfer-rate limiting mechanism, which is different from the conventional diffusion-limiting mechanism in DC power electrolysis.


# Ackonledgements: We thanks Messrs S. Ohno and T. Inaba for their encouragement of this work, Mrs K. Matsuhiro, Y. Imanishi and S. Tange for their helpful discussion, and Mr M. Imaeda for his experimental help.

Here a nice explanation of Les Banki about the difference between strait dc and pulsed electrolysis:



I suggest we clean up this mess.
I have already taken the first step by replacing ‘HHO’ with HydrOxy in all my articles.
Why?
Because the gas my set-up produces is NOT pure mono-atomic H+H+O but a combination of di-atomic and mono-atomic, H2 + O2 + H + O.

As everyone knows, water is: H2O

When split with DC current electrolysis, the gas is: H2 + O2
(Note that the devolved gases are in their di-atomic state ONLY.)
This gas has the LOWEST energy level. 
(About ¼ (25%) of the pure mono-atomic H+H+O.)

With PULSED DC electrolysis, we get “Brown’s Gas” or HydrOxy,
H2 + O2 + H + O, (di-atomic plus some mono-atomic gas.)
Its energy level varies with the ratio of di-atomic/mono-atomic gases but usually will be about twice (2X) the energy level of the H2 + O2 gas which is created with DC current. 

With RESONANCE (NOT electrolysis!), we should get ‘pure’ HHO (H+H+O).
It has the HIGHEST energy level. 
About 4X more than H2 + O2 (using DC current)

The importance of this should be obvious.

If not, let me illustrate it with a practical example which everyone can understand.

Let’s look at two (2) experimenters: “A” and “B”
Their set-ups are IDENTICAL, with ONE exception. 
Their electrolyzers (and the power supplies powering them) are DIFFERENT.
But they produce the SAME volume of gas.
 
Here comes the “weird” bit.

Experimenter “A” runs his generator 100% on WATER. 
PLUS other load.

Experimenter “B” needs to ADD hydrocarbon fuel.  He does not have ‘enough’ gas!

But, I repeat, they have the SAME VOLUME of gas!

So what is different?

“B” is using a LOW VOLTAGE, HIGH CURRENT DC POWER SUPPLY to power his electrolyzer.
Further, he has just a few cells in series, then, groups of these are in parallel.
That combination produces only H2 and O2 , di-atomic (molecular) gases!

“A” has a large number of cells in SERIES and uses HIGH VOLTAGE PULSED DC 
power supply.
His set-up produces H2 + O2 + H + O (di-atomic plus some mono-atomic gas).

From my short article titled “Running series cell electrolyzers on 50/60 Hz AC power”, here is a quote:

“It needs to be pointed out that in order to make QUALITY gas (HHO, Hydroxy, Brown’s Gas, etc.), PULSING is necessary.
George Wiseman has also pointed this out in his “Brown’s Gas Book Two” which he published many years ago.

Quote (from page 18):
“Power supply considerations

If we apply straight DC current to the electrolyzer, we find the oxygen and hydrogen devolving to their di-atomic state.  We get NO Brown’s Gas.

The electricity MUST be pulsed to an electrolyzer to produce Brown’s Gas; 120 cps is sufficient to produce Brown’s Gas, even 100 cps will work; so regular wall cycles will work.”
End quote.”

So, the ‘bottom line’ is: the HIGHER the mono-atomic (H+H+O) portion of the gas, the LESS the engine will need to run.

I wish to stress, once again, this is NOT a “fairy tale” story.
Over the years, several experimenters have found it to be correct.

There are two main requirements for running engines on water ONLY:
1.  Quality gas (a portion of it MUST be mono-atomic, H+H+O)
2.  Engine management

If these are ignored (or compromised), it is most unlikely that you will succeed in running engines 100% on water.
Instead, you will end up with a fancy “booster”.

This also explains why so few in the past have succeeded using water as the only fuel.

OK.
If you have problems accepting the above explanation, I suggest you watch the video with Oliver & Valentin again.  Closely.

Pay attention to their cell AND its power supply on the trolley.
What do you see??
A LARGE capacity VARIAC (AC mains supply).
On its moving arm you see a heath sink (probably for the rectifier power diodes).
Next to the VARIAC is what looks like a power resistor bar (current limiter?).
Even without knowing all the details of their set-up, we can safely conclude that it is an un-filtered HV power supply, PULSING at 100Hz.  (twice the mains frequency)

IMO, that is one of the 3 reasons why they have a looped, running system with excess power.
The second is their SERIES cell.  (Anton cell)
The third is IGNITION TIMING.
A bit crude but it works.

Best regards,
Les Banki

Brian, i found this old schematic of the alternator setup.....

It's Difficult for me to be exactly true at the moments, However, There is something very different! I am not yet sure if its a reverse base breakdown.

I was getting different results with the frequency on the alternater setup back in the day and I couldnt not explain why, nor did I understand why everyone elses was different from mine. The other day I ran into something, then I realized I used Axial Diodes with my original alternator setup. Something about the diodes act differently.

I once upon a time got a coil to emf the Dc capacitor threw the diode, at a lucky time the diode would break down and the capacitor would charge the coil, then a back emf would again charge the capacitor immediatly. there was an resonance occurring that i've never seen before. I havent yet been able to replicate my own work.

I have noticed, to keep something in resonance from dying out, you give it a slight push, and it keeps going.

Did you use a tvs diode in the same way we normal diodes uses?

I would like to drop in here and make a quick update on stans VIC. Sorry if i'm not here all the time.

Stan told the truth when he said he pulsed his tubes at 20,000 cycles per second! I'm not exactly sure what he meant by that but due to research
I can tell you that at 20Mhz and any wavform will work. You have to have an oscilloscope because you have to tune it anywhere between 13 Mhz and 20 Mhz.

You shall tune till you see whats called "Ringing" at the start of the natural sine wave. Do not tune the ringing all the way threw the entire waveform. The Ringing rides on a sine wave. Let it ring for 1/4th of the timeframe of the sine. Voltage increases production. The fuel cell remains cold. The gas is far less volitile and the cell continues to run. Doesn't matter if you use a transformer or not, A function generator and scope is the only needed tools.

Have fun, later!

BTW, there is no step charge effect, but you will see unique bubbles thats huge. The gas is less volitile!!! Almost like it lacks oxygen.

Brian, 20,000hz is 20khz. Not 20mhz.....
So which frequency do you mean now?

A typical electrolytic cell can be made as shown in Figure  17.1.1 . Two electrical conductors (electrodes) are immersed in the liquid to be electrolyzed. These electrodes are often made of an inert material such as stainless steel, platinum, or graphite. The liquid to be electrolyzed must be able to conduct electricity, and so it is usually an aqueous solution of an electrolyte or a molten ionic compound. The electrodes are connected by wires to a battery or other source of direct current. This current source may be thought of as an “electron pump” which takes in electrons from one electrode and forces them out into the other electrode. The electrode from which electrons are removed becomes positively charged, while the electrode to which they are supplied has an excess of electrons and a negative charge.

Figure  17.1.1  : An electrolytic cell. The battery pumps electrons away from the anode (making it positive) and into the cathode (making it negative). The positive anode attracts anions toward it, while the negative cathode attracts cations toward it. Electrical current is carried by electrons in the wire and electrodes, but it is carried by anions and cations moving in opposite directions in the cell itself. Since the anode can accept electrons, oxidation occurs at that electrode. The cathode is an electron donor and can cause reduction to occur. Image used with permission of Wikipedia (credit XXX).
The negatively charged electrode will attract positive ions (cations) toward it from the solution. It can donate some of its excess electrons to such cations or to other species in the liquid being electrolyzed. Hence this electrode is in effect a reducing agent. In any electrochemical cell (electrolytic or galvanic) the electrode at which reduction occurs is called the cathode.

The positive electrode, on the other hand, will attract negative ions (anions) toward itself. This electrode can accept electrons from those negative ions or other species in the solution and hence behaves as an oxidizing agent. In any electrochemical cell the anode is the electrode at which oxidation occurs. An easy way to remember which electrode is which is that anode and oxidation begin with vowels while cathode and reduction begin with consonants.

The following video shows this process taking place in a neutral solution of water with some electrolytes present.

As an example of how electrolysis can cause a chemical reaction to occur, suppose we pass a direct electrical current through 1 M HCl. The H3O+ ions in this solution will be attracted to the cathode, and the Cl– ions will migrate toward the anode. At the cathode, H3O+ will be reduced to H2 gas according to the half-equation

2H++2e−→H2(17.1.1)
(As seen in other sections, we shall write H+ instead of H3O+ in half-equations to save time.) At the anode, electrons will be accepted from Cl– ions, oxidizing them to Cl2:

2Cl−→Cl2+2e−(17.1.2)
During electrolysis H2(g) and Cl2(g) bubble from the cathode and anode, respectively. The overall equation for the electrolysis is the sum of Eqs.  17.1.1  and  17.1.2  :

2H+(aq)+2Cl−(aq)→H2(g)+Cl2(g)(17.1.3)
or

2H3O+(aq)+2Cl−(aq)→H2(g)+Cl2(g)+2H2O(l)(17.1.4)
The net reaction [Equation  17.1.3 ] is the reverse of the spontaneous combination of H2(g) with Cl2(g) to form HCl(aq). Such a result is true of electrolysis in general: electrical current supplied from outside the system causes a non-spontaneous chemical reaction to occur.

Although electrolysis always reverses a spontaneous redox reaction, the result of a given electrolysis may not always be the reaction we want. In an aqueous solution, for example, there are always a great many water molecules in the vicinity of both the anode and cathode. These water molecules can donate electrons to the anode or accept electrons from the cathode just as anions or cations can. Consequently the electrolysis may oxidize and/or reduce water instead of causing the dissolved electrolyte to react. An example of this problem is electrolysis of lithium fluoride, LiF. We might expect reduction of Li+ at the cathode and oxidation of F– at the anode, according to the half-equations

Li+(aq)+e−→Li(s)(17.1.5)
2F−(aq)→F2(g)+2e−(17.1.6)
However, Li+ is a very poor electron acceptor, and so it is very difficult to force Equation  17.1.5  to occur. Consequently, excess electrons from the cathode are accepted by water molecules instead:

2H2O(l)+2e−→2OH−(aq)+H2(g)(17.1.7)
A similar situation arises at the anode. F– ions are extremely weak reducing agents—much weaker than H2O molecules—so the half-equation is

2H2O(l)→O2(g)+4H+(aq)+4e−(17.1.
The overall equation can be obtained by multiplying Equation \(\ref{7}\) by 2, adding it to Equation  17.1.8  and combining H+ with OH– to form H2O:

2H2O(l)→2H2(g)+O2(g)(17.1.9)
The following video shows the electrolysis of water taking place, using sulfuric acid as a bridge to allow for the transfer of charge. After the electrolysis is complete, the identities of the gases formed are verified using burning splint tests.

Thus this electrolysis reverses the spontaneous combination of H2 and O2 to form H2O. In discussing redox reactions we mention several oxidizing agents, such as which are strong enough to oxidize H2O. At the same time we describe reducing agents which are strong enough to reduce H2O such as the alkali metals and the heavier alkaline earths. As a general rule such substances cannot be produced by electrolysis of aqueous solutions because H2O is oxidized or reduced instead. Substances which undergo spontaneous redox reaction with H2O are usually produced by electrolysis of molten salts or in some other solvent. There are some exceptions to this rule, however, because some electrode reactions are slower than others. Using Table 11.5, for example, we would predict that H2O is a better reducing agent than Cl–.

Hence we would expect O2, not Cl2, to be produced by electrolysis of 1 M HCl, in contradiction of Equation  17.1.1 . It turns out that O2 is produced more slowly than Cl2, and the latter bubbles out of solution before the H2O can be oxidized. For this reason Table 1 found in the Redox Couples section cannot always be used to predict what will happen in an electrolysis.

All,

In electrolysis the electrons on the outside of the electrode passing the current thru the electrode to the ions of the water.

The electrons are there because of the system we use to get current into the wfc.

Can i assume that it is the amount of electrons that set the electrolysis proces from the outside in motion?
If so, could it be possible to use a Van der Graaf generator or ionized negative air to pump electrons towards the electrode and having electrolysis as result?

Steve

Here are the basics of electrolysis. Most research was done by Tero.
My dryplatecell is a variant on his research.
 
 
Low Voltage Electrolysis
 
I think everyone should probably start where they feel they will have the most success. Although low voltage is a completely different approach and has nothing to do with the Water Fuel Cell, I and many others are open minded and optimistic that low voltage electrolysis might give rise to new efficiencies over 100%. The ultimate goal would  be able to supply enough gas to power a vehicle on demand.
 
Before you waste time experimenting on something that has already been done before or asking people silly questions on forums, read this information below and refer to books in the resource section. I am going to compile a great resource for experimenters in low voltage electrolysis.
 
I have created this section on low voltage electrolysis to give answers or a guide to these topics.
 
How to produce a efficient electrolyser?
How much hydrogen/oxygen do I have to generate per minute to run a small engine?
 
First Things First:  Understand Electrolysis
 
Click here to learn about Electrolysis
 
There are plenty of people building different types of electrolysers on the forums.
I will try and fast track the learning process by teaching you what I have learned. I will base this on what I have read in books and observed from other experimenters.
 
 
 
                                   How to Produce a Efficient Electrolyser
 
 
 
Things that need to be considered
Electrical Efficiency
Temperature
Pressure
Cell design
Calculate the Efficiency of your Cell
Electrolyte
Recent Patent Discoveries for Increasing Gas Production
Different types of hydrogen production
 
 
Electrical Efficiency
 
 
Hydrogen/oxygen generated during electrolysis is dependent on current (amperage)
If voltage is to rise higher than the lower limit then power is wasted. (refer below)
 
For example:  An electrolyser using 2000 volts and 2amp would produce approximately the same amount of gas as a 2 volts and 2amp electrolyser.
 
When calculating the power in watts, you can really see how much power you are wasting.  (refer below)
 
2000 volts x 2amp = 4000watts 
 
Compared to:
 
 2 volts x 2amp = 4 watts
 
That's pretty amazing !
 
The lowest voltage, theoretically, is 1.24 volts for electrolysis.
 
This is the best explanation I have on why, is that 1.24 volts is the minimum.
 
Quote from this link
 
"This theoretical figure was determined by taking the energy released
per mole when hydrogen is burned. Using that figure, and knowing
how many amp hours are needed to produce 1 mole of gas, they
calculated the theoretical minimum voltage."
 
Definition of a mole here
 
I need a better explanation why the minimum voltage is 1.24 Volts. I am open to your input. Please also provide a link if possible. contact me.
 
 
Lowering the voltage means higher efficiencies.
 
 
 
 
Temperature
 
 
At 25 degree Celsius Using voltages between 1.24 and 1.47 Volts will not produce heat it actually absorbs heat from the environment. This is called a endothermic reaction.
 
1.481 volts is referred to as a thermo neutral reaction. This is the critical limit.  Our electrolysis chamber will actually remain cold or similar temp to the environment you have it in, if you don't go over the 1.481 Volt limit. If you do go over, you will produce heat this is called a Exothermic reaction.
 
See this information that explains a thermo neutral reaction (need a link....contact me )
 
Raising the voltage means the cell temp will rise. This occurs when exceeding the 1.481 limit. We don't want to exceed this upper limit too far because of the risk of boiling/evaporation. We waste power and it may produce steam/Water vapor. This will enter the combustion chamber leading to a decrease in power.
 
I have recently read an article that pulsing the voltage will regulate the temperature when exceeding voltages above 1.481.  See here
 
 
 
Important Fact on Temperature
 
 
 
At 25 degrees Celsius the necessary voltage needed to electrolyses water is 1.24 volts. Increasing the cell temperature will actually lower the 1.24 volt limit.
 
For Every 1 degree Celsius raised during this voltage level you can drop the 1.24 Volt minimum by 0.82mv.
 
I believe the best way to heat the cell will be to capture any heat that will be given of by the engine friction or exhaust gases. thoughts?
 
 
 
 Important fact on Pressure
 
 
Raising cell pressure means you raise the lower voltage limit. bad news !
 
 
With rising cell temperature for every degree Celsius it increases the necessary voltage by 44.4 mv when the pressure is increased 10 times.
 
 
 
 
 
What sought of design should I choose for my cell design?
 
 
News Flash
 
This is the Best Electrolyser I have seen see here. This is made by Tero!
 
  Lets get familiar with the best cell configurations I will use a 12volt source in the examples
 
 
 
 
 Series cell design
 
 
 
Important Note
 
If you don't isolate the cells like I have described above your voltage per cell
will look like this
 
 
 
negative plate
 
2.22 V
1.16V
.89V
.77V
.72V
.69V
.92V
1.06V
1.41V
1.80V
 
Positive plate
 
I have been informed that the above is due to bypass leakage currents so the only way to stop this from happening is to isolate the cells within the container so no electrolyte can pass between, like I have shown above.
 
note....
 
It has just been found that a very small hole drilled through all the plates to give electrolyte equalization will cause minimal current bypass within a acceptable limit......so this is good news!
 
 
 
Calculate the Efficiency of your Cell
 
 
If your wanting to see how efficient your cell is download Warj's calculator (Part . This is very well done and makes everyones life alot easier, see here
 
If you prefer you may want to use this information supplied be Tero here or the Electrolysis Site or just plug in the values here  titled (hydrogen.exe executable) and it will spit it out.
 
A general note on efficiency ( A forum post by Tero)
 
Hi,
Willard's efficiency number (2.3516W/LPH) refers to oxyhydrogen
volume (2/3 H2 and 1/3 O2 per volume). The number will be different
for hydrogen only.
For all practical purposes 1.47V cell voltage will be 100% efficient
electrolyzer. The endothermic value 1.23V would be 120% efficient, as
part of the input energy would come from the ambient thermal energy.
Tero
 
 
 
Electrode spacing and Electrolyte
 
A 3mm gap is thought to be a good clearance to have between plates in a electrolyser, but this has been suspected of causing problems with foaming in Tero's design and we will be soon experimenting with a 8mm gap.
 
You must choose a electrolyte such as Potassium hydroxide (KOH) and use distilled water.  It has always been the recommended electrolyte for the main reason that it stays in the electrolyte and does not cause a toxic gas such as chlorine when using salt as a electrolyte.
 
more on choosing the appropriate ratio of KOH  and other information/dangers See here
 
 
 
Power source 
 
 
The most common is a 12-volt battery but as we discussed above voltage must be around 1.24 and 1.47 or just over for  efficient production. A series cell design may be the most economical approach. This will reduce the voltage. Refer to the series cell designs above.
 
A regulated, pulsed, or variable power supply may be suitable, but large amperage is needed for most cells these types of power supply can be expensive and hard to find.  Twelve volts batteries in parallel will supply a lot of current. Make sure you use a series cell design to cut down the voltage.
 
I was also thinking of rectifying the output of a AC arc welder and feeding this into a series cell design. An arc welder usually produces around 50 volt and pumps out around 100amp. More information to be given on this later. I will give it some more thought.
 
 
Backflash Arrestor
 
 
Many people use bubblers. See here at oupower.
 
Bubblers help in giving you some sought of protection from the cell exploding,  so don't think you don't need it. There is no backflash arrestor I know of that is quick enough to stop a hydrogen/oxygen flame.
 
Stanley Meyer  worked on the principle of the gas traveling through very small  holes stopped the backflash, but it needed to be mixed with non combustible gasses.
 
See the Hydrogen Fracturing Process book
section 2 Titled Quenching circuit technology (specifically
2-3 for written information) and figure 2-4, 2-6, 2-7
 
 
There may be another way!
 
If the hydrogen/oxygen is injected before spark ignition occurs, then the injector will be closed before the gas is even ignited. It also has another advantage of being precisely metered. I think port injection might be the best option, but a specific hydrogen injector might have to be used and definitely a bubbler.
 
A problem that exists with single cylinder four stroke engines is that the spark occurs on the exhaust stroke as well as the firing stroke. The combustion occurs on the exhaust stroke (Backfire). This is because the unburnt hydrogen gases reignite!
 
 
I think all of the methods above are dangerous and I do not advise anyone to use any methods, so it's at your own risk.

Different Types of Hydrogen
 
 
There are four different atomic forms of  hydrogen these are:
 
Orthohydrogen
Parahydrogen
Monatomic Hydrogen
Diatomic Hydrogen
 
At atmospheric pressure and 25degress Celsius hydrogen gas is 75% orthohydrogen and 25% Parahydrogen. When Hydrogen gas is liquefied, it all converts into Parahydrogen.
 
Orthydrogen
 
Orthohydrogen electrons spin in the same direction and the gas is very explosive.
The Xogen Patent seems to think it is ideal for combustion engines.
 
quote from patent
 
"As is well understood by those skilled in the art, orthohydrogen is highly combustible. Therefore, any orthohydrogen produced can be transported from the container 111 through valve 102 and outlet tube 101 to be used by a device such as an internal combustion engine."
 
Parahydrogen
 
Parahydrogen  has electrons spinning in opposite directions , is slower burning, and is safer to use.
 
Quote from Xogen Patent
 
"Parahydrogen is not as highly combustible as orthohydrogen and
hence is a slower burning form of hydrogen. Thus, if Parahydrogen
is produced by the cell, the Parahydrogen can be coupled to a
suitable device such as a cooker or a furnace to provide a source of power
or heat with a slower flame."
 
Monatomic hydrogen
 
Monatomic hydrogen is thought of as more explosive because it travels as a single gas atom (H) and doesn't cling to other hydrogen atoms. This makes it great for combustion because it is less work to break it down.
 
If a feasible way exists to make Monatomic Hydrogen it will increase power.
 
Also See this information on Browns gas (See both pages)
 
also these definition and story on Bob Boyce
 
 
 
Diatomic hydrogen
 
Diatomic hydrogen is thought of as less explosive because it travel in groups of hydrogen (H2) atoms. There is more work needed to combust this gas and is thought of as less explosive.
 
See this information: Browns gas (See both pages)
 
Also these definition and story on Bob Boyce
 
Xogen seem to have the orthohydrogen part under control with the pulsing of the plates see the patent work needs to be done on our behalf to figure out how to produce these gases. I need more information for this section Please Help.
 
Brown gas seems to have the monatomic hydrogen solved.
 
What I think we need to produce is monatomic hydrogen that is in a orthohydrogen state. 
That's my thought, but I might be wrong?
 
This may suit our electrolysers and Combustion engines. We may only need 1% of gas in the combustion chamber.
 
 
 
How Much Hydrogen and Oxygen Do I Have to Generate Per Minute
to Run a Small Engine?
 
 
By what I understand using a stoichiometric air fuel ratio will result in high NOX emissions.  This is not good for the environment and is a waste of fuel. It needs to be diluted with more air.
 
Hydrogen can run at ratios 180 to 1 by mass ratio or in other words about 5% of the combustion chamber. The stoichiometric ratio is a lot higher 34 to 1 by mass, that's about 30% of the combustion chamber. Using the 5% ratio suits the environment and us!
 
So lets do the math and see how much hydrogen we need to power a 100cc engine running at 1000rpm.
 
A four stroke engine doing 1000 revolutions per minute will fire 500 times, so we only need to supply fuel for that 500 compression strokes. If you are not familiar  with the four stroke cycle see this.
 
The minimum required fuel air ratio is 5% hydrogen in the combustion chamber, so that equals 5cc in a 100cc engine.
 
500 ignitions x 5cc of hydrogen = 2500cc
 
So that means for a 100cc engine, we need 2.5 liters of hydrogen per minute for a engine running at 1000rpm.
 
I wonder if I am correct?
 
Now if we use this calculator here titled (hydrogen.exe executable) we can work out using electrolysis how much current we need to pump through a electrolyser. See results below:
 
Hydrogen Gas ...................2.5 liters
 
Water required .................3ml (disassociated)
 
Electrical current required.... 328 amps
 
Time to generate................60 seconds
 
 
If you use port injection, high energy ignition system, High compression Ratio etc it may be possible to use this low ratio?.....who knows ?...that's why we need to find out.
 
 
Warj has created 2 calculators.
see part 7 and 8 here
Elements Themeset
Part 7 is a calculator for how much hydrogen a car will take to run
Part 8 is a calculator for how much hydrogen you are making, and efficiency status
This is great work by Warj, I really appreciate it.
 
 
 
 
Design Considerations
 
I feel that a pipe feed electrolyser going to a small 100cc engine, that is not properly regulating, will result in huge wasteful amount being uncombusted and would run out of gas very quickly! The first few strokes would gobble up all the gas. I think either a proper injection system or a  regulated hydrogen/oxygen gas supply will be the only way.
 
Some people speculate you can go even lower than the minimum 5% ratio. I don't know.  This is why we need to experiment and build a electrolyser and get a small engine running.
 
Also something that I have not equated for in the calculation above was the extra oxygen being created by the electrolyser and entering the combustion chamber as well as the hydrogen. This must certainly help in aiding the combustion process, doesn’t it?
 
For more information see download this called Module 3 Hydrogen: Use in a Internal Combustion Engine.
 
 
 Recent Patent Discoveries for Increasing Gas Production
 
 
Here are some past posts from Tero from the Egas forum
 
Hi,
I found a patent (US4184931) by Inoue that claims pulsed electrolysis
with KOH electrolyte produces 25% increase in gas output with the gas
moisture (=electrolyte vapor) content reduced five times at the same
gas output level. I consider this a very good development, because I
have had lots of problems with foaming and electrolyte vapor while
running my small engines on oxyhydrogen (practically straight DC).
Download here
The patent recommends 5-50ms ON time with OFF times 2..30 times the
OF time.
I believe you should use a large capacitor between power supply and
switch FET so that you get really high current peaks to further
improve electrolyzer efficiency. Bockris reported in the 70s that you
get about twice the gas output by using very narrow but very high
current spikes instead of straight DC.
The patent also claims that by using narrow pulses instead of
straight DC improves the gas output from 55cc/min to 68cc/min. The
KOH vapor content in the output gas is reduced from 15% to 3%.

Tero
 
 
 
Hi,
I just found a very interesting and detailed patent about electrolysis
using spiral swiss roll type electrodes with permanent magnets to
create a vortex. It's a conventional electrolysis cell with
magnetically assisted ion transport.
Download here
The patent claims that the single cell produces 0.116 liters / sec =
417.6 liters/hour at 2.8V 30A.
Normal electrolysis would produce about 19 liters/hour at 30A, so it's
about 20 times Faraday. Very interesting.
Tero
 
 
What Do We Need to Find Out?
 
 
We all need to experiment and work as a team to find solutions to the possibility of running a car on water and find answers to the following:
 
 
Different frequencies may increase gas production?
100 % orthohydrogen production maybe from electrical pulsing?
Vacuum electrolysis. This is what I am interested in. The theory is from others who have experimented with this approach is that you may be able to suck of the bubbles from the electrodes, so electrolysis can continue to produce more gas. Also there might be other mysteries associated with the vacuum?
Different ways to Electrolyze water below 1.24 Volts.
Using different types of hydrogen to lower the 5% minimum requirement in occupying the combustion chamber for combustion to occur.
Direct Injection system to precisely meter/monitor gas supply and prevent gas wastage.
Back flash arrestor that can handle the speed of Hydrogen and oxygen flame or are we stuck with using a pop off valve of some sought?
 
 
 
 

Quote

What keeps a standing wave in motion? Some interlocking mechanism or a constant flow of energy... self energy?

for every action one trade take place, 0 and 1 polar matter displace. 0's the light and YOU ARE THE 1, what it amounts to is divinity..
lol part of a song i wrote..

in my mind for every action one trade takes place
makes me think back to 2 pac days
live by the gun die by the gun
what he'd  say.
the deal is we in the matrix and
for every action one trade takes place.
1 and 0  polar matter displaced
0 is light and you are one and what it amounts to
is divinity and in todays worlds filtered by luminosity
 they dont share the gift
moneys the artificial  switch
1913 freedom got ditched
so take your turbulent disturbants
go buy some detergent
and make your own suds
im ready to grab my guns
play elmer fud  and go have some fun
how deep does the wabbit hole go
thats what im out to know.
come out to playpesky wabbit
visualizing a gun to his noes
all i see is visual distortion
my intuition says all seeing eye
causeing govenment collusion
hiding the fusion in lifes illusions
as pastor troy say's
look up in the sky nigga we rich..
find your third eye and open it
this is for the deaf dumb and blind
please dont make me flip my mind
from positive to negative
we're all riders of the same storm
which makes us dividend as well as innocent

Outlawstc: PLEASE USE DOTS IN YOUR TEXTS...........THANK YOU!!!!! You type such long lines....

steve

I like your brainfart. Well written.

br
Steve