Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Started by unknown · · 88 posts · last reply 30 January 2011
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#51 · date not recorded
I don't know where it is you get you ideas from,but there not from Stan.Most of your post are so far off from what Stan is trying to say.You need to re-read all of his work and try to get a better understang of what he is saying,and stop reading something else into it.You are making this whole thing way to complicated.Everything you are trying to say,you would probably never be able to prove.You need to spend more time experimenting than typing.
Everything I have learned while working on this project has come from experimenting.The more I test,the more it comes out just as Stan states.It's that simple.I am getting down to the last of my studies on this cell.I have a little more to do on my new circuit before I can get back to testing my last few things.I have figured out what Stan claims to have done.If I can't get it to work after this,than It probably will never work.If Stan put everything he knew into his writings,than I know how he did it.If I can't get it to work as he says it does,than it either doesn't work or he left some part out.And as far as I can tell,it's all in there.You just need to put all the pieces together,and I'm down to the last few pieces.
As for this topic,I am through trying to correct your miss thoughts,and will leave that up to someone else.
Remember K.I.S.S. !!!!!!
Don -
#52 · date not recorded
I'm finishing the prototype to prove what i'm saying it will only have one pair of tubes inside that acrylic container with aluminum paper around it, it now have a connection that i soldered on a copper foil strip.
Very soon i will be able to be certain of what i'm saying just need to focus a bit.
I'm only saying what he wrote in the patents, water bath ... I think that anyone tried this this way before.
Thats why i'm saying that maybe fast freddy did it.
If the thing work i will show in a video.
Thanks Don for effort correcting me, my hope is to help enlightening your ideas. Please don't stop. Ask your self all the possibilities. -
#53 ·
I would like to answer all your questions.. but if there aren't much... Guys i would really like to hear from you all your impressions! -
#54 ·
This is why his EPG worked. He created a too ingenious way to ionize the gases by using their dielectric proprieties. Is so clear now.
What keep puzzling me is how the electrons get consumed. I'm thinking of some possibility, like an electron emission by heating element having around it a copper tube grounded. Or if they will get already out during the hot arc. What worry me is the word consume.
I really guess that the electron deflection and entrapment plays the major role here. He in my imagination accelerated than this freed electrons (emission) to collide with oxygen in the air to free up even more electrons to than consume them by maybe stoping them in the coil while it is charged, letting the field to collapse and connect to the ground to discharge excess electrons.. -hum I don't really know, only experimenting i will be able to determine this.
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#55 · date not recorded
Well the amp restriction is about to add a negative field in the positive electrode, cause being it negatively charged it will repel the electrons so they will not flow thru the water so the charge can be applied aways to the water. This is very clearly described in the patent http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/20_Voltage_Control_Circuit/index.html
However must be a floating ground relation...
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#56 · date not recorded
Hi Fabio,
I understand what you try to do and what you are saying. I do appriciate this out of the box thinking of you.
Dynodon is right in his advise to try to keep it simple.
However, all simple things are tried and tested.
Don, what is your latest test? Would you like to share that?
My 2 cents on this:
I know of charging watercells. I know people done it. Even when the powersupply was off, the charge was there.
Or the tubes where charged or the water. Not sure on that detail.
I also know that Stan has a third wire on the tubecell sign in some drawings. Some suggested that was going into the waterbath.
If you charge water, then its not electrons that are passsing thru the charge, but ions, like Bubz stated.
Electrons could be set free in that water when the watermolecule is separated.
However, electrons are NEVER consumed. The can travel, but cannot be consumed. Please keep that in mind.
Stan also said that his proces is the opposite of the electrolysis proces.
In my opinion that means pulling charge out of the water, instead of adding charges.
Or in other words. moving electrons out of the waterbath...
Like you use a voltagefield, like a magnet does, on one electrode and one on the other electrode.
Pulling....
Well, there stops my theory, because i do not know how to make the water instable in a way that the bonds are broken and electrons are free moving towards the electrodes.
Possible because 1 coil and 1 electrode can have a voltage potential and the other electrode with coil as well?
It might be not needed to have a voltage potential across the electrodes?
Just 2 voltage fields outside the tubes and not crossover it? Like magnets?
Feel free to drill down my 2 cents here.....
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#57 · date not recorded
Yes! Steve exactly that!
Stan talkes about taking electrons out of the water bath.
If you have a piece of acrylic and rub in your hair it takes on an electric charge don't it takes? And it don't discharge because around it there is only air witch is an insulator.
Is the same thing with the water but as it is liquid we cannot rub it, so we need to use the voltage to do it.
You agree with me that the tubes inside the water have a capacitance in relation to each other but they also have a capacitance in reference to the outside of the container. So if you add a conductor around the container the water become the electrode and part of the capacitance. But happens that you can charge the water in this way cause water will lose its electrons as it is part of the electrode.
I think that this electrostatic charge on the electrode is the responsible for the accumulation of the ions on the electrodes. I mean that dirt on the electrodes.
So he charges the water and discharge sequentially in order to give to the water an ever increasing charge. -
#58 · date not recorded
I did some tests today, found the following,.
The capacitance between the tubes inside and the container outside is around 300pf as i have only a small pair Measured. The capacitance between tubes should be around 1,8nf (calculated).
If i charge the electrodes in relation to the container up to 40kv i have 12 micro-coulombs of charge inside the water.
So if can consume this electrons the next time the water will have even more charge, Positive.
In my test i could charge the bath to 120v but i think is that my transformer have to many turns on the primary for the voltage i'm using. Wish a variac to work from the wall.
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#59 · date not recorded
Voltage alone will not break the covalent bonds unless the levels reach Mega Volts. If you re-review the New Zealand video there is a part where he talks about the oxygen molecule and how it's electronegativity can overcome the water molecule and help break the bonds. This is where the EEC comes into play, but, it is used with the ambient air gas processor and not the gasses released by a bulk water cell. In fact, a bulk water cell is much to dangerous and inefficient to consider once you realize that it only takes about a drop of water and some ionized air to push a piston down with the explosive power the combination can produce. Remember, less mass will result in a higher thermal yield during combustion. Putting the demo cells in this same category is erroneous.attachment_6386 combustion.jpg
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#60 ·
Now after watching the New Zealand video again, I'm not so sure of my thoughts on the subject nor do I agree with a lot of what he states. I have no doubt what he purports is workable, it's just his explanations of certain parts seem to be way off or misrepresented.
He claims the water molecule will elongate. I would like to devise a test device to see this with a drop of water somehow to see this. Any Ideas? -
#61 ·
I just did a new try, and got more than 1000 volts across the container. Across the plates there is a permanent charge of 450mv if you short the plates the voltage goes to zero but recharge again within a few seconds.
Bubz
WHen the water get charged the water atoms get electrically intensified this mean that the hydrogen atom become more positive and the oxygen become more negative, this break the bound in the following way, as the hydrogen become more positive it now attract the electron of the covalent bounding to it self orbit and at the same time the oxygen by being negatively intensified it repel the covalent electron thats why meyer say that the least voltage you apply the molecules will elongate and the gases will be liberated.
I think that i will have to work on my circuit because when i start to try with the spark gap the circuit stop oscillating. Any ideas?
I think that i'm very close to complete the quest.
The thing Bubz is that the water molecules in the isolated bath takes on an electrical charge (intrinsic proprieties of dielectrics) in reference to the outside of the container so you can have a capacitance there. Now if you charge the water and than discharge in a way that the electrons are prevented to come back into the water bath, it means that electrons were extracted from the water bath, this makes the water to get positively charged step by step. Electrically intensified.
I'm using only stan words with background knowledge interpretation.
If you read every single word that i wrote in this thread and read the patent that i suggested you will understand what i'm talking about. Even if there they where using other similar principle you will notice the talk about the covalent force in newtons and the calculations for it... and so on.
Dear friends i think is only about charging the water up to the maximum limit possible.
I think that up to 600kv is reasonable.
Than just shoot the pulses in the water and magic happens.
I think.
Think about the significance of the word isolated ground and isolated water bath and how you could have 40kv across a pair of tubes inside water and why his cell was constructed in acrylic and so many other things.........
Than consider
Electrical polarization process (the act of polarizing the water molecule, giving to it a positive charge)
Electrical extraction process (method for obtaining the polarization of the water molecule to accomplish the electrical polarization process) switch of the covalent bound.
My question is how can anyone have thought about this! But is very clear, you need to think of water like if it was a piece of plastic a dielectric and all its proprieties witch in its case is to retain a charge. Microcapacitors. Electrically intensified.
When a dielectric break down because of high voltage it happens because there are no more holes or electrons missing to link up the bands of conductions thus this means that on one side the atoms become very negatively intensified and on the other side the same.
As you see stan took this from the physics books about capacitors. I read some in the library.
So basically you want a net charge inside your water bath. And all connections to transformers and everything on the circuit must be insulated from ground or it would never work.
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#62 ·
There are two paths here that the readers can take.
One is to say this is not what stan said and thus is not right.
And the other is to say, Stan described many things and anyone succeeded in replicating, might he explained correct? Did he wanted everyone to understand? Do i want to explain to you correctly?
I think that stan would never explain his process clearly. He only explains the theory and very partially.
While he say dielectric proprieties I say It takes on an electrical charge.
He say water bath molecules i say water bath molecules
He say electron ejection, i say electron extraction
He say stationary voltage field, I ask my self why???
Here i will make a point maybe the electron extraction is not necessary but maybe just charging the bath to a high potential is enough so not needing the EEC ... or not -
#63 ·
I just remembered where i heard about charging the water. Joe cell
I know all those bull shits about orgone bla bla is not related but maybe the thing is that the idea was misunderstood.
The objective is to charge the water to a very high voltage and than apply a isolated dc supply between the cylinders.
The thing is this, to extract electrons from the isolated water bath, charge the water to very high voltages this should solve.
Stan used a plastic water tank. Everything was very insulated with delrin.
Lets than follow the KISS method!
I say maybe thing is so simple that meyer invented all those things just to keep everyone out of the track. But in the patents he said that electrons are ejected from the water bath. For me this mean give to the water bath a positive charge witch reminds me electrical polarization process. For me this connects.
His vic is very useful for obtaining extremely high voltages.
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#64 ·
I was thinking a little better and I think that the thing is to apply the isolated pulses in the contrary polarity so the electrons flow will be minimized. I tell you why. As the positive stationary field electrode will become the negative it will than attract the electrons so restricting the current. I suggest the use of also a negative stationary field this would than repel the electrons so restricting the current even further. We just need to add inside the inner tube a dielectric and another conductor isolated so it creates a field in relation to the outer tube.
So there are fields from outside the container to the inner tube and from inside of the inner tube and the outside tube.
He kind of talk about this repelling restriction of the current in the patent.
But keeping it simple stupid, apply the moderated isolated voltage (trains of pulses like he described) negative to the inner tube and positive to the outer tube, and charging the inner tube with positive charge in relation to the outside of the container (very high voltage).
I think that would be worth adding a spark gap between the inner tube and the outside of the container collector to make such that it discharges when reach the max voltage. I think this will help to give an even greater positive charge to the water.
I think that 100kv is a good start.
So everything must be thought to be insulated for 100kv. And i think that this is the only problem that must be think of.
So basically even if the isolated pulsing supply is of relatively low voltage it must be insulated between primary and secondary for 100kv.
And so on.
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#65 ·
Other configuration just crossed mu thoughts, being the outer tube positive in relation to the outside container and the inner tube positive in relation to the outer tube.
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#66 · date not recorded
I wonder if the 100Kv+ of a stun gun could be useful. -
#67 · date not recorded
I think that any 100kv source is ok it only need to supply for charging the water quick, than a spark gap sequentially discharge the water when desired voltage is reached.
here i have 1000 volts instantaneously and thus 0 amp flow. i just need higher voltage source. i need to re assembly some coils on the flyback core i have to achieve at least 50kv than i will add some choke to see if it become volt less, the only problem i see is the insulation.
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#68 · date not recorded
There are essentially four basic kinds of polarization mechanisms:
Interface polarization.
Surfaces, grain boundaries, interphase boundaries (including the surface of precipitates) may be charged, i.e. they contain dipoles which may become oriented to some degree in an external field and thus contribute to the polarization of the material.
Electronic polarization,
also called atom or atomic polarization. An electrical field will always displace the center of charge of the electrons with respect to the nucleus and thus induce a dipole moment as discussed before. Theparadigmatic materials for the simple case of atoms with a spherical symmetry are the noble gases in all aggregate forms.
Ionic polarization.
In this case a (solid) material must have some ionic character. It then automatically has internal dipoles, but these built-in dipoles exactly cancel each other and are unable to rotate. The external field then induces net dipoles by slightly displacing the ions from their rest position. The paradigmatic materials are all simple ionic crystals like NaCl.
Orientation polarization.
Here the (usually liquid or gaseous) material must have natural dipoles which can rotate freely. In thermal equilibrium, the dipoles will be randomly oriented and thus carry no net polarization. The external field aligns these dipoles to some extent and thus induces a polarization of the material. The paradigmatic material is water, i.e. H2O in its liquid form.
Some or all of these mechanisms may act simultaneously. Atomic polarization, e.g., is always present in any material and thus becomes superimposed on whatever other mechanism there might be.
Real materials thus can be very complicated in their dielectric behavior. In particular, non-spherical atoms -
#69 · date not recorded
I think the objective is electronic polarization. And probably also the orientation polarization too but less important to the process.
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/backbone/r3_2_1.html -
#70 · date not recorded
Just found one definition to what i'm taking about.
Even when an object's net charge is zero, charge can be distributed non-uniformly in the object (e.g., due to an external electromagnetic field, or bound polar molecules). In such cases the object is said to be polarized. The charge due to polarization is known as bound charge, while charge on an object produced by electrons gained or lost from outside the object is called free charge.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge
Free charge!
Is the classical example of Electrification by friction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect[/size][/font] -
#71 · date not recorded
So i'm taking about increase the free charge of the water by taking out electrons from the water bath. Hope is clear enough.
The object is the water bath as a whole so you must mind that you do have a capacitance between the inside and the outside. So if you will take out electrons from the water must be in relation to this capacitance. -
#72 · date not recorded
I believe that there will be a difference between using a glass insulator or a resin. And thus i think that both should be tested.
I say this because glass behave different from resin when rubbed. For example glass would take a positive charge while resin a negative. -
#73 · date not recorded
Static build-up in flowing flammable and ignitable materials
Discharge of static electricity can create severe hazards in those industries dealing with flammable substances, where a small electrical spark may ignite explosive mixtures.[9]
The flowing movement of finely powdered substances or low conductivity fluids in pipes or through mechanical agitation can build up static electricity.[10] Dust clouds of finely powdered substances can become combustible or explosive. When there is a static discharge in a dust or vapor cloud, explosions have occurred. Among the major industrial incidents that have occurred are: a grain silo in southwest France, a paint plant in Thailand, a factory making fiberglass moldings in Canada, a storage tank explosion in Glenpool, Oklahoma in 2003, and a portable tank filling operation and a tank farm in Des Moines, Iowa andValley Center, Kansas in 2007.[11][12][13]
The ability of a fluid to retain an electrostatic charge depends on its electrical conductivity. When low conductivity fluids flow through pipelines or are mechanically agitated, contact-induced charge separation called flow electrification occurs.[14] Fluids that have low electrical conductivity (below 50 picosiemens per meter), are called accumulators. Fluids having conductivities above 50 pS/m are called non-accumulators. In non-accumulators, charges recombine as fast as they are separated and hence electrostatic charge accumulation is not significant. In the petrochemical industry, 50 pS/m is the recommended minimum value of electrical conductivity for adequate removal of charge from a fluid.
Kerosines may have conductivity ranging from less than 1 picosiemens per meter to 20 pS/m. For comparison, deionized water has a conductivity of about 10,000,000 pS/m or 10 µS/m.
Transformer oil is part of the electrical insulation system of large power transformers and other electrical apparatus. Re-filling of large apparatus requires precautions against electrostatic charging of the fluid, which may damage sensitive transformer insulation.
An important concept for insulating fluids is the static relaxation time. This is similar to the time constant (tau) within an RC circuit. For insulating materials, it is the ratio of the static dielectric (The relative permittivity of a material for a frequency of zero is known as its static relative permittivity or as its dielectric constant)[/color][/font]constant divided by the electrical conductivity of the material. For hydrocarbon fluids, this is sometimes approximated by dividing the number 18 by the electrical conductivity of the fluid. Thus a fluid that has an electrical conductivity of 1 pS/m has an estimated relaxation time of about 18 seconds. The excess charge in a fluid dissipates almost completely after four to five times the relaxation time, or 90 seconds for the fluid in the above example.Charge generation increases at higher fluid velocities and larger pipe diameters, becoming quite significant in pipes 8 inches (200 mm) or larger. Static charge generation in these systems is best controlled by limiting fluid velocity. The British standard * PD CLC/TR 50404:2003 (formerly * -5958-Part 2) Code of Practice for Control of Undesirable Static Electricity prescribes pipe flow velocity limits. Because water content has a large impact on the fluids dielectric constant, the recommended velocity for hydrocarbon fluids containing water should be limited to 1 meter per second.
Bonding and earthing are the usual ways charge buildup can be prevented. For fluids with electrical conductivity below 10 pS/m, bonding and earthing are not adequate for charge dissipation, and anti-static additives may be required.I read this yesterday in my friend house, I think is very related.
Fueling operations
The flowing movement of flammable liquids like gasoline inside a pipe can build up static electricity. Non-polar liquids such as paraffin, gasoline, toluene, xylene, diesel, kerosene and light crude oils exhibit significant ability for charge accumulation and charge retention during high velocity flow. Static electricity can discharge into a fuel vapor.[16] When the electrostatic discharge energy is high enough, it can ignite a fuel vapor and air mixture. Different fuels have different flammable limits and require different levels of electrostatic discharge energy to ignite.
Electrostatic discharge while fueling with gasoline is a present danger at gas stations. Fires have also been started at airports while refueling aircraft with kerosene. New grounding technologies, the use of conducting materials, and the addition of anti-static additives help to prevent or safely dissipate the build up of static electricity.
The flowing movement of gases in pipes alone creates little, if any, static electricity.[17] It is envisaged that a charge generation mechanism only occurs when solid particles or liquid droplets are carried in the gas stream. -
#74 · date not recorded
I think that only with an electrostatic voltmeter we can measure accurately the water charge, and the tubes charge. As they only measure the voltage from the force of the field therefore without flow of charges. -
#75 · date not recorded
I'm trying to think about the relation to Van de Graf charging.
I mean, as there are two capacitors one inside the other, something tell me that when we charge the inner capacitor the outer will get charged as well. I'm not pretty sure...
A Van the Graf generator accumulate Voltage by inputing charge in the middle of the ball, as it is conductive, the law of physics say that no charge will remain inside a conductor. So every time you go there to put a charge on it it will accept as there will never be a charge inside of it.
The thing is that i don't understand what charge can be placed there, negative? well i'm trying to find out what really happens, since 5 years i think is related and now that i found this relation between the outer capacitance, i think it more than ever.
any ideas?