Bob Boyce — IonizationX

#76 · 28 Feb 2009

Hi Steve and Cowboyrx,
in the post above wouter

quote
The 101 plate cell together with Bob's Hex controller is said to produce up to 100lpm at low amps but we still could not verify this. end

Well as you know we here have not either, well here is some of the quotes that may be of interest, you can view them all at the http://waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=531.0
Now whether this will help I do not know, I doubt it, still I will try it again when the board is repaired, this is nearly done, and the 'new separate board' is partly done, one choke wound. I have to have both ready for the test as the 'cell' is some distance away from me at Ian's. I hope to do some tests here later.

well I would like to here some comments on the 'quotes'
aussepom

From Bob Boyce
I will top-post here due to the length of the quoted text below.

I simply do not have the time to read all of Patrick Kellys document(s) to see what is or is not disclosed. I have written so much over the years, at so many forums, that there is no way that I can tell you where every little bit of my information is published. But one thing is certain... I have disclosed everything related to my resonance drive systems, at least once, if not more, in the various sites that I post at. Patrick Kelly, after asking my permission of course, took it upon himself to attempt a compilation of my information. He did not ask for compensation from you or anyone else for this monumental task. As far as I am concerned, he did an excellent job. From time to time, it is brought to our attention that there is an error or omission, and that is corrected by Patrick, hence the continual updates he makes.

I can tell you this. The cell is not a capacitor, no matter how much you want it to be one. It is a load, one that we dissipate power into, in order to liberate a unique form of hydroxy gas. It may have some capacitance, as many loads do, but that has nothing to do with the sort of resonance that my system employs.

The resonance of the primaries has nothing to do with the frequencies (intervals) used. You are trying to compare sinewave (transverse) resonance at specific frequencies, to compression wave (longitudinal) energy. It cannot match due to the propagation velocity differences between the two types of energy. This is because compression wave energy flows at a much higher speed than that of transverse energy. Please try to ignore your traditional education when attempting to understand this technology. It has nothing to do with transverse electromagnetic waves, and everything to do with the compression waves of potential shock waves as they flow through the bi-metallic skin of the winding conductors. The behavior of the compression waves in the primary windings are directly related to the longitudinal wavelength of the wire vs the pulse widths of applied potential. Therefore, you will quickly discover that excess pulse width is a very bad thing when trying to get the maximum amount of energy gain from input power vs output power. At extremely short pulse widths, I have had input to output gains in excess of 200 X magnification. Tesla himself claimed to have reach 100 X gain in his magnifying transmitter at very low power levels as well. My improvements upon his technology should allow me to hit as much as 300 X magnification, but I have yet to see that much. I am still working at it of course.

The operating voltage of the 100 cell unit is typically in the 150 to 160 volt range. In a low leakage unit, the current SHOULD be about 200 mA, but yours may be higher or lower due to differences in leakage currents. We do NOT want electrolysis to occur, as this will interfere with the resonance. Primary current (all 3 combined) should not exceed 200 mA as well. In my own HexController unit, with very accurate windings, primary current does not exceed 10 mA. Of course the PWM3F or PWM3G will not offer the same performance levels (PWM3G is closest) as the HexController, but they are able to show gains of up to 3 X to 5 X if operated at minimum pulse width. By the way, minimum pulse width is determined by the minimum pulse width of channel 3 (10.7 khz repetition rate), and the other channels are to be set to exactly the same pulse width. Primary windings will require adjustment to match that pulse width. There was a reason I made a relatively simple calculation method for determining the number of turns for the primaries based upon secondary turns and cell idle current. It only takes 1 turn of error to make a big difference in performance, 2 turns of error will result in no joy. It's like tuning an antenna, if the VSWR is too high, the impedance mismatch will destroy the effectiveness of the antenna. This is no different, as it is an antenna array of sorts, just not electromagnetic in nature.

Bob Boyce

Quote from: aussepom on February 27, 2009, 02:50:40 PM
Hi Bob, Mr Rowland and others
Thankyou WouterFuel for creating this thread.
Yes the cell was set up and all the procedures was strictly followed

{ The only time 4 amps is used is during the cleansing phase, during which time the cells are not connected to the toroidal power system. After that, the conditioning phase, which is done for at least several days, running at about 1 amp, and again, the cells are not connected to the toroid power system.}

{ Only when operated during resonance, (after cleanse and conditioning are completed) is the toroidal power system connected. At that time, entraining potential current through the cell stack is in the few hundred milliamps range. }
How many hundreds?

Or do we follow Mr Rowland?

{ Now instead of the approx. 2vdc per cell the voltage is set at 1.5vdc per cell. With your 100 cell unit operating at 150vdc the amps will (or should be) be much lower.}

and what ever the current is at that stage would be ok??

None of this type of information is in the D9, that every one seems to take as 'the gospel'

Once the board is repaired and re-setup, will follow like to follow an option

{ The primary current to all three toroid primaries combined is no more than a few hundred milliamps TOTAL! }

Our coil
Toroid P1 = 996uH, 0.319 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance, at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 10.7khz Z = 66.96 ohms,
13.8 / 66.96 = 206mA

Toroid P2 = 992uH, 0.323 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance, at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 21.4khz Z = 133.38 ohms
13.8 / 133.38 = 103mA

Toroid P3 = 992uH, 0.323 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance, at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 42.8khz Z = 267.57ohms
13.8 / 267.57 = 51.5mA

Total calculated milliamps by the three primaries = 360.5mA

Measured Total current after set up was 320mA this was as far as I was prepared to take it at that stage.
How I see things
So if at any time during the setting of the pulse widths this when any where near 500 to 800mA it was backed off. If you are not aware of this you can during this tuning you can send the Mosfets into 'full on mode', when this happens, the coil is no longer getting pulses just straight DC, and acts accordingly, the 'time on' period will 'see the DC resistance only' so do the sums
Max that could be draw in this 'period of on time' is 13.8 / 0.319 for P1 = 43.2 amps FOR THAT TIME DURATION THAT PULSE IT IS ON FOR. That for these 510's is too much and before you can blink it is blown.
This is why I have said to the 'learners' put the heavier Mosfets in with the coil open, so that you can get the 'feel' of the setting up procedure. You can then fit the 510's when you are happy with your results
Why was not something like this stated in the D9, or by you Bob?

Pin five will give you the out put of the oscillator, set this first, on all three 556's with the frequency pots. R24, R 26, R28
Show pic of this

You can monitor the 'with pulse' on pin nine of the 556, as you then adjust the pot you will see the pulse start to increase.
Show pic of this
You must have done this Bob, Or you Mr Roland, simple thing like this help us all understand.

{ the toroid windings ideally should be wound for opposite spin in the southern hemisphere. This would mean winding CCW going CW, and the 3 phases would be reversed in direction for CW clocking. This is to compensate for the reverse earths magnetic field south of the equator. Having it wound and connected for northern hemisphere will still work, but at a loss of production. }

This has not been mentioned any where to my knowledge, if it was posted some where then please point me to the post.

Mr Rowland quote
{ if you are using 204vdc@4amps to get only 4+ LPM I think you may have some leakage between cells. A well cleansed and conditioned pack (without the high end tronix) should do more LPM.}

Well I do not think that there is any leakage, however there is one thing that could account for this, and I will ask Ian to check this before we do the next test.
The 'elite mixture' percentage may be to low, but I am sure he has it correct but I will ask him, if this is lower than Bob used then it would account for the low output at 4amps.
What is the required percentage amount, or the grams per litre, that you used or recommend.?
I just want to double check this with you.

Our 'Cell' calculated at 100hz was 350uf, the measured at 390uf at 35 d C (95F) all our checks are done at this temperature.
The 'Natural resonance' of our series circuit is 102hz. With a total DC resistance at this Rof (resonance) of 1.23ohms.
I have not found that any one has posted a set of pic 'as it was tuned' similar to me, whether they are correct or not, there is even the part of a 'faulty connection with a Mosfet'.
I would like to compare our toroid coil information, that I have posted with the one that you have Bob, the results should be similar. Or if any one else has any info similar would be welcomed.
I hope to repair the board and re set it up for another test, any information is welcomed that will hell test this project.
sorry I would have like to do shading but not sure how.
aussepom

Aussepom

#77 · 1 Mar 2009

Hi to Steve and you all I will be placing this on the waterfuelforall site and the other sites.

IF YOU HAVE ANY OF THE BOARDS PWM3 'E' OR 'F' OR THE NEW ONE 'G'

Bob and wouter

I was doing some checks and I have found what I see is a major problem. It is on both the 'E' and the 'F' board.
The circuit looks ok, but it is on the board it's self.
T o explain, R12 goes from the supply rail to pin five then through C5 to pin 8 the trigger input of the second timer. This is ok on the circuit.
Look at the board, on the tracks ( green ones) from the supply rail through R12 IT THEN GOES DIRECTLY TO PIN 8, THROUGH THE CAP TO PIN 5.
R12 and C5 form a timing circuit to pin 8 of the trigger on the second timer. This CANNOT happen the way that the printed circuit board is.

A solution, CUT THE TRACK BETWEEN R12 AND PIN 8 THEN PUT A JUMPER FROM THE R12 TO PIN 5.

Now this board is the one Bob sent to us directly, so how could any of the boards be working 'as per the circuit'.
I do not have a copy of the 'G' board so I can not see if it is the same.
If any of you out there have any of these boards please check them.

I found this when I put pins in position to check the pulses on pin 5 and pin 9, there seem to be a problem, so checked the signal at pin 5 and at pin 8. then check the board, against the circuit.

Problem is how many more faults are there?

Why has this not been picked up before now, was it on the earlier boards??

Why is it left up to us to find these faults, I feel for all those people that have paid good money for these boards, including us.
Sorry to go on but this is not good, why should we all be the guinea pigs to sort out these problems.
aussepom

CowboyRX

#78 · date not recorded

Bob shut down his Hydroxy Yahoo group maybe because of this?
http://waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=531.30

Steve

#79 · date not recorded

Hi Cowboy,

I think Bob wants to see some money from poor suckers who gonna buy his controller.
Till this moment, NOBODY ever showed me a working device, doing what Bob claims.
And now, he is even gonna tell us that we cannot use the word CONTROLLER?
Hahahahahaha. Sorry. Just like somebody is telling me not to use the word WATER...

br
Steve

CowboyRX

#80 · date not recorded

Did you guys see the oscilloscope shot there? Can we use it to understand what he might doing with his three frequencies?

yaro

#81 · 8 Mar 2009

As expensive as THE CELL is, how many people can afford it? How about maintenance and getting rid of the brown stuff?

Aussepom

#82 · 8 Mar 2009

Hi guys
Oh dear he is not going to play the game any more, what would make him a much more respected man he has admitted the mistake, let him explain the outcome of what happens, if the bord is corrected to the schismatics. When he looked at it, as an electronics engineer, he would know what would happen, he has not posted any scope pics, that one was from some one else.
He chose to take his bat and ball and go home and close the site.
Have you read the last few posts, it is likely to be wiped off, but I will use controller , HEX controller, the make of the chip all I like. How ever I will be looking into using a PIC, wouter is as well. I will be testing three boards now, the unaltered one, that we made, the one that I have and will Modify, and the Les Banki one.

yaro
ASK BOB BUT i DO NOT THINK HE WILL TELL YOU. AND OUR GROUPS SMALL CELL IS BETTER THAN HIS ANY HOW, MORE OUTPUT AND VERY CLEAN.
YES STEVE THERE IS NOT ONE THAT I CAN FIND EITHER.

CowboyRX how you doing with yours ?

That’s all for now.
aussepom

Steve

#83 · date not recorded

I like your view on things, Aussepom!

br
steve

Aussepom

#84 · 3 May 2009

hi Steve then check this out

Here is the link to the Utube clip, there was an splat there but that was the scope earth lead touching something that it shouldn't, always clip it back if you are not using it.

well there is not much more going to happen with this unit.

dankie what do you think?

aussepom

CowboyRX

#85 · date not recorded

Aussepom,

I know that the brute force method works very well in a large series cell and works exactly as described by Bob. The efficiencies i those cells are 150-200% Faraday. So, I was surprised by the brute force output of your 101 plate cell. If built properly, it should produce 33-50LPM @ 3300watts (220v and 15A) with 1/8" spaced 6x6" 316L plates, ~25% KOH by weight @ ~50 deg C.

Everyone is still waiting to see 'resonance'

Aussepom

#86 · date not recorded

Hi
well we did not take it past 204v that got 14lts per min at 10amps, it was getting hot quickly, and at the time we did not want to destroy it before trying the PWM3F on it.
If the pwm was going to work then the high voltage is no good. Bob states it has to be at 1.5v per cell, 150v, and that is what we did, also he states at this voltage the current would be in the in the order of several hundred mA it was mentioned some where 200mA is what he had, and yes we got the same result.
we know that the output of the toroid was working ok, as seen in the photobucket vid with the test circuit.
Now all were looking for was a large increase in the output, this would have certainly been noticed with the few bubbles that we had.
This then would have shown that there was 'something else' there but it did not.
so we put out the challenge to Bob. I do not expect him to, if he does show us all how it is done with all the relevant details then I will take my hat off to him. however I will not hold my breath for it to happen.
aussepom

Dankie

#87 · date not recorded

Just too difficult to replicate like Bob Says ...

I'm sorry , this is a real heartbreaker ... But somewhere along some tiny bit of evidence , an obervation or w/e has to pull you in a certain direction and narrow it down evr more closely ... It seems you never had that moment , I am sure you were really looking hard .

But this Bob Boyce story smelled fishy right from the start ... What kind of guy gets to understand this science but cant properly release a pulsing circuit that doesnt have this "ghost" in the circuit that makes things 100 times more complicated. And also , things like this dont just "happen" , he basicly lucked out on that boat because of some diode ?? Give be a break ... Impossible... If its so hard to tune then how can "gods luck" make it work with some "broken diode" lol ... Thats one a 99999999 chance

Bad shit again from panacea who always find themselves releasing absolute bogus .

Too bad you were not around here when I said this

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,726.0.html

Steve

#88 · date not recorded

Hi Aussepom,

I seen your video message to Bob. I totally agree with you on this. Me too didnt have any sign of something mysterious, or big trick.
Its all bogus of the first degree.

Maybe, if Bob has balls, he tell you what to do, but he probably will not. He just wants BIG money.

Steve

Steve

#89 · date not recorded

Hi, I had some conversations with Bob.
I like to share them with you:

This part is about inductors.
All 3 inductors are of the toroidal variety in the trucker system. I know there will be those that may not like to hear it, but the best results were observed with silver plated, stranded, teflon insulated wire. This can be purchased from surplus outlets. The stranded version of this wire does not work on the large 3 phase toroid itself, yet works great on the chokes used to prevent that energy from leaking out of those 3 phase toroidal systems. Heavy guage stranded and solid copper house wire, and solid magnet wire were tried, and did not have the same results. This is not to say that they may not be made to work, just that they did not work in the configurations tested.

In the trucker system, the common + connected toroid is wound full fill with AWG 4, and both of the - connected toroids are wound full fill with AWG 8. I tried different sizes of toroids, and compared the results. There was not much noticed increase from using larger toroids, other than it lowered the required frequency to be applied. The Q is low, so the peak is broad, and tuning is not super-critical. All pulsing used in the commercial application was below 250 Hz in this particular application.

Exact toroid specs are pretty much useless here, as the characteristics of the cell(s) this is connected to will dictate what works best. However it may be useful to note that the toroid cores used were MicroMetals 45 mix, the same as that used for the more recent chokes recommended for the large 3 phase toroidal systems. The smallest toroid cores tested were T157-45, and the largest were T400-45. I did try one of the large T650-52 as used in the 3 phase toroidal power system, but the result was just not worth the much higher cost and the space required.

Hope this helps
Bob Boyce

Second part is on how that toroid of him should work:

Bobs system part2:

Pulsing dc into toroid on 3 primary's
Chokes must prevent electron leakage when powerpuls is off.
secondairy coil is hooked between dc and wfc. Voltage on the secondairy is must not exceed level that starts electrolysis. A Bias like voltage. Never let voltage drop towards 0 volts.
The 3 primairy's must provide a signal waveform that provides enough power to start electrolysis in some way..?? BOB?
3 frequencys are capable of creating a stepup ramp. When freq 1 is pulsing you have a low step. When 2 frequency's hit the same time, the pulse on the secondairy will be twice as high then a single puls.
And when all 3 pulses hit the toroid at the same time, the pulse on the secondairy will be 3 times as high then a single puls.
The pulse it self is square. Play with Mark and space and with voltage levels to get optimum result.

If i miss something, please join in, Bob!

His answer:
Sorry, I have been extremely busy providing customer support for those customers and dealers that have been left "out in the cold" so to speak by the manufacturer. I solved the problems by reflashing the controllers back to the original firmware that I had proven was working properly prior to me leaving. This removed all of the manufacturers malware that they had been updated with, and I corrected the calibration values back to original specs. The original units out there are now working as designed again.

The simplified pulsing system does not use the same multi-phase drive as the larger toroidal system. Though the description you gave does describe that larger toroidal system very well. The steps in pulsing levels are very effective in that system.

The simplified system also uses a choke on the power bus side to prevent EMI leakage through to the vehicles power system. How it differs is that each cell unit has a single choke in series with it that uses the pulses provided by the control devices (FETs or DC SSRs). The programming is such that pulses of the same repetition rate are provided at all times that the system is on. Pulse width is adjusted between 0% (full off) and 99% (full on) in 1% steps to control current. On any feedback type control system, the shunt must also be isolated from any EMI produced in order to function properly.

Bob Boyce

komtek

#90 · date not recorded

Stevie, can you get any pictures to go with that.

Does Bob provide some visuals anywhere of his pulse system and chokes other than whats available in the standard PDF's?

Such massive wire, must use a huge amount of current for his cell.

Aussepom

#91 · date not recorded

His 101 cell did not work, and the is a faulty or was with his pulse circuit board,
A group that I was with followed his direction to the letter and had a board from him set to the group, cost the group around $3,000, then they asked me to come and put my instalments and scope to work, that is when I found the flaw when asked about it he could not give a straight answer. So we challenged him to show us with his own 101 cell and put it on Utube.
Next I was banned from a lot of forums.
Ravis cell was the best and there is some other secrets that I can tell the group about this type of cell.

Newguy

#92 · 25 Dec 2018

In Bobs defence....his circuit evolves continuously and adding the toroid onto the drive circuit is genious in my book...thats getting really close to perfect in my book

I wish he would add a high impedance section as well tho if he aint allready.

Aussepom

#93 · 25 Dec 2018

here was also promlems with this toroid drive

Aussepom

#94 · 30 Dec 2018

ok just found this

BB from test.docx

Steve

#95 · date not recorded

thats a bb aetup. Same as i did

Aussepom

#96 · 31 Dec 2018

yes and it did not work I do have a vid that was put on Utube as a chalenge to him that chalenge was to him or any one that could demomstrate with information to back it up that chalenge has yet never been answered. that was the 101 cell some where I did show the fix to the pwm board to make it work the way it was intended by BB but the cell still did not perform.

Newguy

#97 · 31 Dec 2018

Quote from: Aussepom on December 31, 2018, 05:34:54 am

yes and it did not work I do have a vid that was put on Utube as a chalenge to him that chalenge was to him or any one that could demomstrate with information to back it up that chalenge has yet never been answered. that was the 101 cell some where I did show the fix to the pwm board to make it work the way it was intended by BB but the cell still did not perform.

Did yall get the gold colored anode side and blue colored cathode side of ur plates after conditioning?

Aussepom

#98 · 31 Dec 2018

I was notthere at the conditioning time but i asure you the groups main man did every thing by the book as per the scrip from BB himself.

Newguy

#99 · 31 Dec 2018

Quote from: Aussepom on December 31, 2018, 07:25:37 am

I was notthere at the conditioning time but i asure you the groups main man did every thing by the book as per the scrip from BB himself.

Ten 4...those numbers posted look like a conditioning phase output.