Steve

Quote from: Steve on August 27, 2012, 19:33:25 pm

Quote from: prowlingbear on August 27, 2012, 15:13:37 pm

Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

No, i was not able to run a selfsustaining system with hho and drycells and ionizers.
That is simply not possible. An engine is like 30% efficient. My drycells are around 120% faraday efficient. Much more then the anton cells, btw.

The germans have been tricking us all.
And i think i know how.
To be honest, their result is not bad. However, theY didnt tell you what was in the bublers.....

Steve

Even if they had a carbon-based but transparent water-like liquid in their bubblers, that whole process would still be pretty efficient, wouldn't it? How much of this liquid could get into the engine per minute? Probably not much.

Yes, Haithar. I totally agree with you. 


Steve

Steve,

Thank you for the heads up on compressing HHO, we are focused on getting out the H2 and using it immediately as fuel, hence our interest in separating out the oxygen so that we can burn just H2.

The reason for the quantification of H2 in Kg, is because it converts easily over to GGE measurements against diesel and gasoline and natural gas and makes comparisons effective. In addition, it is easy to compare the relative btu values of each fuel in understanding what makes sense as alternatives to what we use now.

I am in Green-tech but come out of a product integration background on a macro level rather than on the CTO level. We have made much progress in the HHO generation area and I am now looking ahead to see how we can separate the O from the Hs:)

We are also very interested in transportation and you guys across the pond are definitely ahead of the game on the macro level.

If you are using the HHO as fuel, is it pure HHO without any other hydrocarbons?
Or are you supplementing existing systems with HHO injection?

Thanks for yr clarification on your background, so to speak, PB.
The whole idea of using water as a fuel is the get ride of the carbon part.
However, pure hydrogen or hho gas will get into the metal of yr engine.
Its better to add some oildrops in the running proces.
Some use alcohol vapour to get some carbons in the proces.

For me, i have ran my two engines, who i had available for this hobby, pure and only on HHO and ambient air.
My add-on to improve the burnrate of the hho/ambient air mix  and to get a much better efficiency was an ambient air modifier.
It got me up to 40% better engine performance when it ran on HHO only.

Prowling,

We are here using hho as fuel. Untill somebody is seperating the oxygen from the hydrogen, it is not possible to compress the hho into a liquid. It simply explodes under pressure.
However, H2 can be compressed savely. Then kg / H2 is applicable.

Never try to compress HHO from a drycell or Meyer type of cell!!!

Steve

I am sure it was an experience that generated "real world" data and knowledge, which helps greatly in assessing other claims like the Germans. Thank you for the update.

My earlier comment was that if we could produce 1 Kg of H2 at an energy cost of under 10 kWh, that Kilogram of hydrogen will deliver enough btus of energy to make hydrogen a reality as a source of fuel.

I think we all agree that 10 kWh/Kg H2 would change all of our worlds.

By the way, the HEC engines are pushing 43-46% efficiency running on pure H2.

Prowlingbear,

Why you ask this to specifically?
I never seen anybody talking in kg H2 as a way of measuring...
Whats your background?

Engines doing a 43% efficiency is a good result!
Whats that for a kind of engine? Are you involved in that project?

Steve

The video format is .flv
It should work if you append the file extension onto the name.

They don't claim to produce hydrogen with an efficiency of >1, although the ANTON cell is more efficient than available Dry cells. See measurement videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia/videos According to the forum entries they were just as surprised as anyone else that the motor ran in a closed loop. Btw i have all the parts they used in that video (except the generator) and if i finally have some time i'll try to check how much of "HHO" gas i need to run something like this.

btw Steve can you answer my PM? I have lost the account information of my main account.

Quote

If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

The units of this literally don't make sense.

Dear Haithar,

I have answerd yr pm today.

Steve

Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

No, i was not able to run a selfsustaining system with hho and drycells and ionizers.
That is simply not possible. An engine is like 30% efficient. My drycells are around 120% faraday efficient. Much more then the anton cells, btw.

The germans have been tricking us all.
And i think i know how.
To be honest, their result is not bad. However, theY didnt tell you what was in the bublers.....

Steve

Hi,

A couple of Germans claim to run their small generator set on HHO and is selfsustaining.

Go have a look at their video's.

Steve

No not yet , These were brute force, but it was only to learn how to run engines on hho, Mixture rates, volume etc A huge learning experience.

i can agree on that my self.
Did 4 diff engines myself.
It was great fun ad well.

any selfsustaining system?

Hi Neal,


Which one is yours?
 

cheers

dear Stevie,

I read one e-book which explained how to "run a car on water" which many of them do, and it said that once the engine is running that he suggests gettin stainless valves, stainless exhaust and ceramicoting the pistons.  but what about if you are trying this on a boosted car.  there is alot of "blow by" against the piston rings.  This means that you have browns gas in your crank case.  I know that hydrogen will evaporate quickly which can be helped by a breather on the valve covers, but it is the oxygen that I am really worried about. JE pistons now has new pistons with various coatings on them which can hold the metal's integrity on nitrous oxide specific engines.  as for your questions about that, Nitrous Oxide does add power to your engine, the way it adds power is the better ratio of oxygen to Nitrogen than the atmosphere air you are burning, not only that, but nitrous oxide also does the job of cooling the combustion chamber.  With the better oxygen ratio, this allows us to add more fuel to the engine which will in turn make more horsepower.  Big nitrous oxide systems require colder range spark plugs with bigger gaps, and also timing is one of the biggest issues with this.  the rule of thumb is that you should retard your timing about 2 degrees for every 50hp shot of nitrous.  I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that these pistons were beefed up and specifically built for fast burning and high temperatures lol.  Just something to think about.  Winter break is coming up for us college kids, I am going to home depot and going to attempt my own electrolysis machine.  Hopefully I can post some pictures by the first of the year. 

Hi  Badnova56,

Go start with electrolysis. After you get enough gas, you can start thinking how to run a car.
Read on freepatentsonline.com all patents of Stanley Meyer. In these patents you will read also stuff on how to modify the hydrogen oxygen mix to a lower energetic mix. Stanley didn't want to modify his engine, so he modified the gas.

Have fun!

br
Steve

Warp, kewl!

Why are you not on msn?

Steve

We need to do 3 things:
1. Slow down burnrate and/or explosion intensity of Hydrogen/oxygen
2. We need enough airflow in the engine (which is an airpump)
3. not pollute more

As i have told before, you have to have your wfc under pressure if you power an engine with it.
Stan was doing that. And i am doing that. Why? Flashback problems.
As long as you have a bottle of hydrogen under pressure, you will not have a flashback into it.

Stan worked with 13 PSI and i do that also.
So, what happens when you have 1 litre HHO under 13 PSI by 20 degree celcius or 68 degree Fahrenheit
and you release it into the ambient air of 20/68 degrees?
The Volume of 1 litre expands

13 psi by 20/68 degrees became 1 litre   T stays the same
Pressure drops 100% to zero psi so volume grows 100% to 2 litres of HHO

So, now you have 2 litres HHO with a different density of molecules which is very explosive and burns like a maniac.
Lets asume that HHO has 2.5 times power  then petrol as Stan says.
Why not making the density of the gas 2.5 less?
What do we need? Less pressure or higher gas temperature.
Hmmmmmm.....Lets go for the higher gas temperature....Why? Well, look at the cars that run on wood. Their gas is pretty hot,
before it goes into the car.
What temp we need? Well, lets see. I ll guess around 60 degrees celcius or 140 F.
Thats 2.5 times hotter then ambient air.
So volume also grows 2.5 times....= 5 litres HHO going into yr engine out of 1 litre HHO at 13 PSI of 2 litre HHO under zero PSI.
4 litres at zero PSI = 10 litres at 60/140 degrees C/F

Well, thats enough for today

Steve

Then you lose power.

True and exactly what i want it to do....

Steve did you even watch the New Zealand Videos?

Yes, i seen them. I have put them here on the forum myself.
Your point?

Steve

What Logic said.
Its not about volume, It's density.

You still need to get HHO out of stonch by mixing it with other gasses. In turn will change its burn rate.

Ok. Then tell me what happens if you mix HHO with other gasses.
Could it not be the same as making the volume bigger of the HHO?
Is it not that you want to make more space between atoms?


Steve

Simple: Stan said he lowerd the burnrate of his HHO to the level of petrol.
Ever asked yourself how?

Steve

Stan Meyer: NO LAWS ARE BROKEN OF THERMODYNAMICS....


What is Gay-Lussac's Law?
Gay-Lussac's Law is the third and final of the laws leading up to the ideal gas law. The first is Boyle's Law, which gives the relationship between volume and pressure, and the second is Charles' Law, which gives the relationship between volume and temperature. Gay-Lussac's Law has also been referred to as Charles' Law, but they are not the same.

The founder of this particular thermodynamic relation is Joseph Gay-Lussac (1785-1850). He not only rescued Charles' Law from oblivion by duplicating the experiments and publishing the results, but re-created similar conditions to find the connection between pressure and temperature. Gay-Lussac found that for a gas, if the pressure increases, the temperature increases, and if the temperature increases, so does the pressure.

The Equation
According to Gay-Lussac's Law, at constant volume V, the pressure P is directly proportional to the temperature T:

1) P ˜ T

or

2) P = kT where k = constant

Rewriting equation 2, we have:

3) P/T = constant

Gay-Lussac's Law is also commonly written as:

4) P1/T1 = P2/T2

where P1 and T1 are the original values of the gas, while P2 and T2 represent its final values. In addition to the pressure being constant, the same caveats used in any ideal gas law apply here. These results apply for systems where an equilibrium state has been reached, the gas is not too dense, and P is around atmospheric pressure. Real gases approximate these conditions enough such that the law is applicable in every day life.



Read more: http://www.brighthub.com/engineering/mechanical/articles/26213.aspx#ixzz0T9mVS0Iz


Charles' Law is named after Jacques Charles (1746-1823), who discovered it but did not publish his findings. Mankind is able to benefit from his work due to the efforts of Joseph Gay-Lussac, who also used this result to fuel his own eponymous discovery.

The Equation
According to Charles' Law, at constant pressure P, the volume V is directly proportional to the temperature T:

1) V ˜ T

or

2) V = kT, where k is a constant

Rewriting equation 2, we have:

3) V/T = constant

Charles' Law is also commonly written as:

4) V1/T1 = V2/T2

where V1 and T1 are the original values of the gas, while V2 and T2 represent its final values.

In addition to the pressure being constant, the same caveats used in any ideal gas law apply here. These results apply for systems where an equilibruim state has been reached, the gas is not too dense, and P is around atmospheric pressure. Real gases approximate these conditions enough such that the law is applicable in every day life.

For a given mass of HHO, at a given pressure; the volume that the gass takes up will increase with temp.
The mass of HHO depends on the number of atoms.
This does not increase with temperature.
in fact; it means that you will be able to get less HHO into a given volume (engine cylinder) as you increase its temperature.
Less atoms of HHO in the cylinder means less energy released from burning them = less power.

Engine tuners go to great lengths to keep the air going into an engine as cold as possible. (intercoolers, cold air intakes, etc)
This means that you get more oxygen into each cylinder.
More oxygen means you can add more fuel to burn with it; which gives more power.

BMW's hydrogen car produces less power when running on H (rather than petrol) because the required H takes up much more space in the cylinders than petrol.
Space that could be taken up by oxygen...

Its also the reason the geet may work better with an intercooler.
An intercooler that cools the gas, but not so much as to cause any vapours to condense.

You need more atoms of H & O; not the same number of atoms taking up more volume/space.

There is no getting away from needing to produce more HHO with; either less energy or waste energy.
Then cool it down as much as possible to get more into each cylinder to get the max power from that engine.

 

Ok, let me try to convince you here. If you have HHO, that means you have the ideal mix of H and O. We dont want more oxygen because the mix will not be ideal anymore. That mix of H and O is like 2.5 times more powerfull then a basic petrol/air mix.
If you use petrol drops you MUST add ambient air for couple of reasons.
1. need of oxygen for the burning process and volume
2. need of nitrogen for volume (it automatically adjusts burnrates too)

1 and 2 provide a volume with a certain burnrate/power
HHO has with less volume the same power with a faster burnrate
So what to do to match HHO to a current engine?
Well, we can mix the HHO with ambient air, which i did, and you are getting lots of nitrogen in the mix, which creates more volume and less HH per volume.
But what happens too, is that the ideal mix of H and O is gone because of the extra oxygen.

Thats why i think we should heat up HHO. Make the gas expand 2.5 times. You get 2.5 time more volume with less H and O, but still in the ideal mix for burning.

 
Steve

ionized air and exhaust gasses

I was more thinking about heating up HHO in a way that the volume is about 2.5 time the size of what comes out our wfc.....
That volume should be as powerfull as petrol.
At least the cylinder has more filling, which it absolutely needs.....
Maybe this way, we can slow the burnrate down?

Steve