Charles Law of thermodynamics
Started by unknown · · 23 posts · last reply 14 October 2009
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#1 · date not recorded
HHO = 2.5 times stronger then petrol.
But, we forget that we also need volume.
Petrol is mixed with air.
HHO doesnt need to mixed, because it is already an ideal mix.
So, how to make more volume of the same HHO, so we can fill the cylinder proper?
Anybody any suggestions?
Steve
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#2 · date not recorded
ionized air and exhaust gasses -
#3 · date not recorded
ionized air and exhaust gasses
I was more thinking about heating up HHO in a way that the volume is about 2.5 time the size of what comes out our wfc.....
That volume should be as powerfull as petrol.
At least the cylinder has more filling, which it absolutely needs.....
Maybe this way, we can slow the burnrate down?
Steve
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#4 · date not recorded
For a given mass of HHO, at a given pressure; the volume that the gass takes up will increase with temp.
The mass of HHO depends on the number of atoms.
This does not increase with temperature.
in fact; it means that you will be able to get less HHO into a given volume (engine cylinder) as you increase its temperature.
Less atoms of HHO in the cylinder means less energy released from burning them = less power.
Engine tuners go to great lengths to keep the air going into an engine as cold as possible. (intercoolers, cold air intakes, etc)
This means that you get more oxygen into each cylinder.
More oxygen means you can add more fuel to burn with it; which gives more power.
BMW's hydrogen car produces less power when running on H (rather than petrol) because the required H takes up much more space in the cylinders than petrol.
Space that could be taken up by oxygen...
Its also the reason the geet may work better with an intercooler.
An intercooler that cools the gas, but not so much as to cause any vapours to condense.
You need more atoms of H & O; not the same number of atoms taking up more volume/space.
There is no getting away from needing to produce more HHO with; either less energy or waste energy.
Then cool it down as much as possible to get more into each cylinder to get the max power from that engine.
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#5 · date not recorded
For a given mass of HHO, at a given pressure; the volume that the gass takes up will increase with temp.
The mass of HHO depends on the number of atoms.
This does not increase with temperature.
in fact; it means that you will be able to get less HHO into a given volume (engine cylinder) as you increase its temperature.
Less atoms of HHO in the cylinder means less energy released from burning them = less power.
Engine tuners go to great lengths to keep the air going into an engine as cold as possible. (intercoolers, cold air intakes, etc)
This means that you get more oxygen into each cylinder.
More oxygen means you can add more fuel to burn with it; which gives more power.
BMW's hydrogen car produces less power when running on H (rather than petrol) because the required H takes up much more space in the cylinders than petrol.
Space that could be taken up by oxygen...
Its also the reason the geet may work better with an intercooler.
An intercooler that cools the gas, but not so much as to cause any vapours to condense.
You need more atoms of H & O; not the same number of atoms taking up more volume/space.
There is no getting away from needing to produce more HHO with; either less energy or waste energy.
Then cool it down as much as possible to get more into each cylinder to get the max power from that engine.
Ok, let me try to convince you here. If you have HHO, that means you have the ideal mix of H and O. We dont want more oxygen because the mix will not be ideal anymore. That mix of H and O is like 2.5 times more powerfull then a basic petrol/air mix.
If you use petrol drops you MUST add ambient air for couple of reasons.
1. need of oxygen for the burning process and volume
2. need of nitrogen for volume (it automatically adjusts burnrates too)
1 and 2 provide a volume with a certain burnrate/power
HHO has with less volume the same power with a faster burnrate
So what to do to match HHO to a current engine?
Well, we can mix the HHO with ambient air, which i did, and you are getting lots of nitrogen in the mix, which creates more volume and less HH per volume.
But what happens too, is that the ideal mix of H and O is gone because of the extra oxygen.
Thats why i think we should heat up HHO. Make the gas expand 2.5 times. You get 2.5 time more volume with less H and O, but still in the ideal mix for burning.
Steve
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#6 · date not recorded
Stan Meyer: NO LAWS ARE BROKEN OF THERMODYNAMICS....
What is Gay-Lussac's Law?
Gay-Lussac's Law is the third and final of the laws leading up to the ideal gas law. The first is Boyle's Law, which gives the relationship between volume and pressure, and the second is Charles' Law, which gives the relationship between volume and temperature. Gay-Lussac's Law has also been referred to as Charles' Law, but they are not the same.
The founder of this particular thermodynamic relation is Joseph Gay-Lussac (1785-1850). He not only rescued Charles' Law from oblivion by duplicating the experiments and publishing the results, but re-created similar conditions to find the connection between pressure and temperature. Gay-Lussac found that for a gas, if the pressure increases, the temperature increases, and if the temperature increases, so does the pressure.
The Equation
According to Gay-Lussac's Law, at constant volume V, the pressure P is directly proportional to the temperature T:
1) P ˜ T
or
2) P = kT where k = constant
Rewriting equation 2, we have:
3) P/T = constant
Gay-Lussac's Law is also commonly written as:
4) P1/T1 = P2/T2
where P1 and T1 are the original values of the gas, while P2 and T2 represent its final values. In addition to the pressure being constant, the same caveats used in any ideal gas law apply here. These results apply for systems where an equilibrium state has been reached, the gas is not too dense, and P is around atmospheric pressure. Real gases approximate these conditions enough such that the law is applicable in every day life.
Read more: http://www.brighthub.com/engineering/mechanical/articles/26213.aspx#ixzz0T9mVS0Iz
Charles' Law is named after Jacques Charles (1746-1823), who discovered it but did not publish his findings. Mankind is able to benefit from his work due to the efforts of Joseph Gay-Lussac, who also used this result to fuel his own eponymous discovery.
The Equation
According to Charles' Law, at constant pressure P, the volume V is directly proportional to the temperature T:
1) V ˜ T
or
2) V = kT, where k is a constant
Rewriting equation 2, we have:
3) V/T = constant
Charles' Law is also commonly written as:
4) V1/T1 = V2/T2
where V1 and T1 are the original values of the gas, while V2 and T2 represent its final values.
In addition to the pressure being constant, the same caveats used in any ideal gas law apply here. These results apply for systems where an equilibruim state has been reached, the gas is not too dense, and P is around atmospheric pressure. Real gases approximate these conditions enough such that the law is applicable in every day life.
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#7 · date not recorded
yeah but what does that have to do with stanley meyer and his process? -
#8 · date not recorded
Simple: Stan said he lowerd the burnrate of his HHO to the level of petrol.
Ever asked yourself how?
Steve -
#9 · date not recorded
What Logic said.
Its not about volume, It's density.
You still need to get HHO out of stonch by mixing it with other gasses. In turn will change its burn rate. -
#10 · date not recorded
What Logic said.
Its not about volume, It's density.
You still need to get HHO out of stonch by mixing it with other gasses. In turn will change its burn rate.
Ok. Then tell me what happens if you mix HHO with other gasses.
Could it not be the same as making the volume bigger of the HHO?
Is it not that you want to make more space between atoms?
Steve
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#11 · date not recorded
Steve did you even watch the New Zealand Videos? -
#12 · date not recorded
Steve did you even watch the New Zealand Videos?
Yes, i seen them. I have put them here on the forum myself.
Your point?
Steve -
#13 ·
Steve did you even watch the New Zealand Videos?
I did, Do you remember the Part where stan clearly stated he used 180 degree's out of phase for the fuel cell. How about where he Talks about his "Boiler Plate Configeration," Which is the Boiler that was used to run the buggy in the video when he was Stating all of this.
A alternator is 180 degree's out of phase, There is just 3 coils, we call this 3 phase. Its where 3 180 degree out of phase signals Overlap at 120 degree's.
In other words, if you Research just 1 coil from an stator and not 3, you will see it is 180 out of phase. -
#14 · date not recorded
Then you lose power.
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#15 · date not recorded
Ok, let me try to convince you here. If you have HHO, that means you have the ideal mix of H and O. We dont want more oxygen because the mix will not be ideal anymore. That mix of H and O is like 2.5 times more powerfull then a basic petrol/air mix.
If you use petrol drops you MUST add ambient air for couple of reasons.
1. need of oxygen for the burning process and volume
2. need of nitrogen for volume (it automatically adjusts burnrates too)
1 and 2 provide a volume with a certain burnrate/power
HHO has with less volume the same power with a faster burnrate
So what to do to match HHO to a current engine?
Well, we can mix the HHO with ambient air, which i did, and you are getting lots of nitrogen in the mix, which creates more volume and less HH per volume.
But what happens too, is that the ideal mix of H and O is gone because of the extra oxygen.
Thats why i think we should heat up HHO. Make the gas expand 2.5 times. You get 2.5 time more volume with less H and O, but still in the ideal mix for burning.
Steve
I understand all that and the ideal gass law etc Steve.
Let me try put it another way:
You fill a balloon with HHO.
The Balloon contains a fixed number of atoms of H & O.
Heating the balloon makes it expand/increase in volume.
Cooling the balloon makes it contract/decrease in volume.
But you still have exactly the same number of H & O atoms.
Those atoms oxidise/explode to H2O when you add a spark.
The size of the explosion/energy released is the same no matter the size of the balloon.
The engine turns maybe 20% of that explosion into usefull work.
20% of say 100KJ is 20KJ irrespective of revs, load or anything else.
The only way to get the engine to produce more power is to get more HHO into it.
The only way to fit more HHO into a fixed volume/the cylinder at a fixed pressure is to decrease the temperature.
Now you want to increase the volume of a fixed mass/weight of HHO so that you have more liters per minute to feed to the engine; so that you dont have to add Air.
That will work, but you will get no more power out of the engine, even if the revs increase, as the same mass of HHO is still being used.
I think Stan lowered the burn rate of his HHO by adding steam to the engine:
Steam and HHO go into cylinder on intake stroke.
Steam and HHO compressed in cylinder on compression stroke.
Compressing a gass will increase the temperature of the gass.
So feeding in steam at just the right temp will mean that the compression stroke will increase the temperature of the steam to the point where thermal decomposition takes place at TDC/just the right time;;; with the help of the burning of the small amount of HHO...
Not all the steam will be pyrolysed to HHO and that will slow the burn rate down.
(Using air/nitrogen forms NOx in an endothermic reaction. (heat used up) Using steam causes expansion/power)
There are 2 ways to heat water with electricity:
The way we are used to is to heat a resistor with electricity and then use the hot resistor to heat the water.
The second way is to send ac into water:
The water has a resistance just like a kettle element has resistance and thus you get the resistive heating just as you would in a kettle.
But you are now also imparting kenitic energy to ions in the water.
These ions bump into other water molecules at very hight speed and the kenitic energy is translated into extra heat energy; over and above what you get from resistance alone.
I think Stans 180 out of phase heater was this simple AC to electrodes heating of the water.
The reason he used electricity and not waste exhaust heat alone is so that he could get precise control over the temperature of the water; so that it would pyrolyse at the right time/TDC.
This methode of heating water is said to be over unity.
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#16 · date not recorded
Then you lose power.
True and exactly what i want it to do....
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#17 · date not recorded
Then you lose power.
True and exactly what i want it to do....
AHA!!
I think I see your plan Steve.
If you have a HHO supply under pressure; heating it (with waste heat) will increase the pressure/volume.
If you have enough pressure/volume the piston will be driven down on the intakestroke by said pressure!
This will give you an extra small power stroke!
It will also overfill the cylinder, like a turbo, compensating for volumetric efficiency losses on the original power stroke and negating all my previous arguements.
Heating the H2 will also change more of it into Monatomic H.
This gives a further increase in volume and increases the energy given off by igniting it.
Very Clever!
Or is it me being very clever!??
The fact that H has a higher octane rating (does not pre-ignite at higher compression ratios or in hotter conbustion chambers) means that ther should be no issues with knock.
You may have to beaf of your cooling though.
There is no way, at this point, of producing enough HHO onboard, but there is no reason why one could not set up a wind, solar and waste/p**p powered cell at home.
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/
There are cells out there that produce HHO and pressurise it at the same time; easily found by Googling.
The tech to fill gass bottles is commercially available.
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#18 ·
Then you lose power.
True and exactly what i want it to do....
AHA!!
I think I see your plan Steve.
If you have a HHO supply under pressure; heating it (with waste heat) will increase the pressure/volume.
If you have enough pressure/volume the piston will be driven down on the intakestroke by said pressure!
This will give you an extra small power stroke!
It will also overfill the cylinder, like a turbo, compensating for volumetric efficiency losses on the original power stroke and negating all my previous arguements.
Heating the H2 will also change more of it into Monatomic H.
This gives a further increase in volume and increases the energy given off by igniting it.
Very Clever!
Or is it me being very clever!??
The fact that H has a higher octane rating (does not pre-ignite at higher compression ratios or in hotter conbustion chambers) means that ther should be no issues with knock.
You may have to beaf of your cooling though.
There is no way, at this point, of producing enough HHO onboard, but there is no reason why one could not set up a wind, solar and waste/p**p powered cell at home.
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/
There are cells out there that produce HHO and pressurise it at the same time; easily found by Googling.
The tech to fill gass bottles is commercially available.
That would be a great initiative to do that , HHO meyer style is more of an hobby for the already smart and energy independant guy . -
#19 ·
Then you lose power.
True and exactly what i want it to do....
AHA!!
I think I see your plan Steve.
If you have a HHO supply under pressure; heating it (with waste heat) will increase the pressure/volume.
If you have enough pressure/volume the piston will be driven down on the intakestroke by said pressure!
This will give you an extra small power stroke!
It will also overfill the cylinder, like a turbo, compensating for volumetric efficiency losses on the original power stroke and negating all my previous arguements.
Heating the H2 will also change more of it into Monatomic H.
This gives a further increase in volume and increases the energy given off by igniting it.
Very Clever!
Or is it me being very clever!??
The fact that H has a higher octane rating (does not pre-ignite at higher compression ratios or in hotter conbustion chambers) means that ther should be no issues with knock.
You may have to beaf of your cooling though.
There is no way, at this point, of producing enough HHO onboard, but there is no reason why one could not set up a wind, solar and waste/p**p powered cell at home.
http://www.green-trust.org/wordpress/
There are cells out there that produce HHO and pressurise it at the same time; easily found by Googling.
The tech to fill gass bottles is commercially available.
Hi Logic,
Yes you are a clever person. Its good thinking you are doing.
For me this heating option is to get better volume filling in the cylinder. Maybe its doing others things as wel....
Steve
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#20 · date not recorded
[Hi Logic,
Yes you are a clever person. Its good thinking you are doing.
For me this heating option is to get better volume filling in the cylinder. Maybe its doing others things as wel....
Steve
Like displace the 78% Nitrogen, that is in air, that is useless to the combustion process?
The combining of N with O produces NOx in an endothermic reaction.
ie: it robs power from the engine to produce greenhouse gasses!
There was a big discussion on Wouter's forum about not being able to compress HHO because it will blow up or something?
BB was a big contributer to the thread.
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#21 · date not recorded
We need to do 3 things:
1. Slow down burnrate and/or explosion intensity of Hydrogen/oxygen
2. We need enough airflow in the engine (which is an airpump)
3. not pollute more
As i have told before, you have to have your wfc under pressure if you power an engine with it.
Stan was doing that. And i am doing that. Why? Flashback problems.
As long as you have a bottle of hydrogen under pressure, you will not have a flashback into it.
Stan worked with 13 PSI and i do that also.
So, what happens when you have 1 litre HHO under 13 PSI by 20 degree celcius or 68 degree Fahrenheit
and you release it into the ambient air of 20/68 degrees?
The Volume of 1 litre expands
13 psi by 20/68 degrees became 1 litre T stays the same
Pressure drops 100% to zero psi so volume grows 100% to 2 litres of HHO
So, now you have 2 litres HHO with a different density of molecules which is very explosive and burns like a maniac.
Lets asume that HHO has 2.5 times power then petrol as Stan says.
Why not making the density of the gas 2.5 less?
What do we need? Less pressure or higher gas temperature.
Hmmmmmm.....Lets go for the higher gas temperature....Why? Well, look at the cars that run on wood. Their gas is pretty hot,
before it goes into the car.
What temp we need? Well, lets see. I ll guess around 60 degrees celcius or 140 F.
Thats 2.5 times hotter then ambient air.
So volume also grows 2.5 times....= 5 litres HHO going into yr engine out of 1 litre HHO at 13 PSI of 2 litre HHO under zero PSI.
4 litres at zero PSI = 10 litres at 60/140 degrees C/F
Well, thats enough for today
Steve
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#22 · date not recorded
Lets say you have a gas uner 13.7 psi, Lets say the Gas in the container is Also hot.
So, we have a hot gas, and is now being released threw a metering device from a 13.7 pressure.
Imagine having a Hose comming from the outlet of the fuel cell valve(Metering device) from the cell container.
Imagine that you light the end of the hose threw a pinhole, Torch. It Flashes Back! Suction is created in this hose, You also shut the torch end off imediatly.
You have just sent a hot, high pressure gas into a line now containing a vacuum at a lower temp threw a metering device, This is the Correct ingrediant for converting gas to liquide.
If one has high pressure on one side and its warm, And suction on the other, and there is a drop in pressure and tempature there at that point, you now have micro liquid drops of hydrogen.
I've seen pure liquid hydrogen. Understand what you're fooling with.
Just my comment. -
#23 · date not recorded
Warp, kewl!
Why are you not on msn?
Steve
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