HMS-776

Tony, from the picture of your full scale VIC it looks like you were able to solder the 430 wire to the posts...How were you able to solder them? That is one big problem I had when building mine which ultimately led to the wire breaking internally.

Also, I'm thinking the Injctor VIC resonance with the injector is over 20kHz, but using electrical steel throws me off, how thick are the electrical steel plates you have?

I used m4 electrical steel for mine but I think it was too thick for the frquencies which would be used.

PS, I have some info on the water fuel injectors from a good source. The center rod was .15", the taper went to .10" and was .5" in length with a gap of .01".....I calculated the estimated capacitance would be at a maximum 350pF.

Seems we both realized that the injector VIC has a very high inductance.

When I built mine and connected all the secondary coils series aiding I was reading over 15H. At times my meter would stop reading because it was going over 20H. The 430 wire has some wierd characteristics, it seemed that trying to measure actual inductance  caused the inductance to increase. I think this was because the meter pushes current through the coil to measure the inductance, and the current was increasing the inductance of the coils...

I used the 430 wire which used to belong to Stan but I don't think the company that put the coating on it did a very good job because it was peeling off.

I also had a connection break inside the bobbin so I was never able to even test it out.....Really frusterating because I put over 100 hours into it....
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/vicc.jpg)


One thing I really wonder about the VIC injector is how resonance was maintained. Because the inejctors on time was so short there definately is not enough time there to use a PLL to scan for and lock resonance....I'm thinking that is one reason why the high resistance wire was used, to broaden the resonant bandwidth by dampening the circuit. I have only seen a small amount of info in the tech brief about the injector VIC driving circuitry.....

Where did you get your 430 wire from?

Tony, thanks for the insight.

It makes sense, I'll just have to study more about dielectrics to fully comprehend it.

Back on the voltage and turns ratio, It's just very confusing because Stan makes several statements in the TB that would lead me to believe otherwise. I think there are VIC's that got their voltage from the turns raito and others which developed higher voltages than their turns ratio provides....Like the injector VIC, I built one  a while back and could not get anywhere close to a high enough turrs ratio to develop 20 or 40kV.

Hmmm.

Back to the voltage at the cell....I think I was wrong earlier when I mentioned that the voltage was from the square wave or high circulating current across the choke parallel tank ckts.

In Stan Meyer's control and driver circuit patent he states that the voltage is determined by the turns ratio of the coils. From don's measurements we know the primary coil had 450 turns while the three secondary coils had 3,000 turns each, for a total of 9,000 secondary turns. We also know that the diode used for the WFC VIC was a 600V diode, which is also stated in the control and driver ckts patent.

From the calculations the WFC VIC had a turns ratio of roughly 1:22.5, so 12V in would yield 270V out. Now I want to state that I do think resonance may be occuring between the L1 choke and cell, but that the diode prevents the typical AC series resonance from occuring. I say this because if the typical series resonance were occuring at any frequency the Q factor of the circuit (XL/R) would have to be less than 2.2 (270V X 2.2=600V) or else the diode would be destroyed. Knowing the circuit values we know if typical series resonance was occuring the Q factor would be much higher than 2.2 and the voltage magnification would destroy the diode.

Can anyone with a working replication tell us what voltage they are getting across the cell?

I'm just wondering here because if the VIC is utilizing DC resonant charging then it would be around 540V (not taking losses into account).

So for the longest time I thought the VIC was getting a higher voltage than what the turns ratio provided....Now I think I was wrong all along?

That's very interesting.

Especially if the reactance of the secondary and L2 choke are part of the Q calculation. That would mean that thier reactances would increase the voltage magnification of the cirucit, and they would also limit current...

So, the L1 choke and cell are a series LC resonant circuit. The resonance creates the high voltage, while the L2 choke limits current?

 In a series LC circuit the increased voltage is due to the Q factor which is XL or XC (since both are equal at resonance) divided by R.

If only the L1 choke and cell are in resonance then would the Q factor calculations include the secodary reactance and the L2 choke reactance?

 :-XDave, you mentioned resonant action earlier.

I think the collision is a major part of all of meyers work, and the resonant action is basically a
threshold point at which dissassociation goes geometrial. Of course the resonant
action does not occur at a specific voltage, it's dependant on a number of factors like
voltage, frequency, leakage current, plate gap etc.

I think it's collision as well as the snapping action which cause disassociation.
That's  why hvdc does not produce a lot of gas. Hydrocars posted a while back
about having successfully putting hvdc across water and only producing
small amounts of gas.

Ok everyone, now it's your turn to explain your ideas and thoughts of what the VIC is doing?

I think the VIC is the biggest obstacle in understanding Meyers work.
In this post I hope all will contribute their ideas and thoughts of how it works.

(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/VICmatricckt.png)
The research I have done leads me to believe that the VIC chokes form parallel resonant tank circuits.
In the diagram above you can see the drawing shows the equivalent circuit of each choke coil.
There is a capacitor, and inductor, and resistance which forms a parallel RLC circuit.

Current Limiting: If the chokes oscillate at their self resonant frequency they are equivalent to a parallel tank circuit. At resonance the parallel tank circuit has a nearly infinite impedance which limits current to almost zero.

Ref:  http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34d.htm

Voltage Enhancement: The voltage from the VIC does not come from it's turns ratio. The turns ratio steps up the voltage a little, but not as much as what the VIC outputs.

 I believe this is where the square wave pulsing of the VIC comes into play. The square wave provides a very fast change in the circuits line current(note that in the circuit there is the alternating current of the chokes, but there is also a line current.) The line current is the current that flows through the whole circuit. The line current is very small, and it is the current which flows across the water cap.

Ref: http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34e.htm

When the square wave ends the current falls rapidly and the inductors (Secondary, L1, and L2) induce a voltage which can be calculated using the formula V=Lxdi/dt.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/2.html

Voltage Enhancement The other way I think the VIC might be getting it's high voltage from is the tank circuits high circulating current
and the impedance of the parallel tanks componnets. V=I x Z. This is basic ohms law, Voltage = Current times Impedance.

The VIC Output waveform I have to thank TonyW for this as he helped me understand that the VIC outputs AC, not DC. There are 2 AC waves 180 degrees apart which combine to double the output frequency. The diode prevents the secondary coil from shorting, but the AC generated by the chokes (at resonance) still reflects to the water capacitor.

I modeled the VIC matrix circuit above on multisim and at resonance I got 2 AC waves (1 at each plate) which were 180 degrees out of phase. I also got the pulse doubling effect. Unfortunately I did not save the design and when I made changes to it I could not get the simulation to work appropriatel. I have been trying to get it up and running again but have had no luck. If I do I will post it...I think it's just showing that this circuit will not perform the intended output unless it's exactly at resonance.

No Problem, that's what were all here for!

The WFC VIC in general discussions has a great deal of info...It's spread out over 80 pages but Don and TonyW both contribute a great deal there as far as the circuit goes....

Page 61 shows a schematic of the 4046 and VIC connections by TonyW. Pin 3 of the 4046 actually connects to a 22K resistor and the neg side of the primary coil.

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1513.300

Stan used delrin because it's easily machineable and widely available.

Here's a drawing I just made up of what I think the AC polarity reversal is doing in the Water Fuel Cell.
When the polarity changes the electrical attraction forces become replusion forces that increases collision ionization.
Although collision ionization also occurs in the electrical polarization process reversing the polarity keeps is going.
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/wfcinside.png)

(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC10548.JPG)

Another one of Tony's oscope waveforms....

Both Dynodon and Tony have said resonance takes place between the L1 choke and the water capacitor...
When we study phase angles in AC circuits we find that inductive circuits cause the voltage to lead the current and in a capacitive circuit the voltage lags the current. So in the VIC circuit we have 2 seperate circuits, one that operates at resonance (L1 choke and water cap) and one that does not(L2 choke and Secondary coil).

 If the resonant part of the circuit is not exactly at resonance the circuit will be either more inductive or more capacitive causing a phase angle shift. When the shifted phase angle combines with the other through coupling the superposition of the out of phase voltage waves will create Amplitude modulation.

Another way this could occur is if the circuit (L1 and water cap) is exactly at resonance but the other half of the circuit (L2 and secondary) has inductive or capacitive characteristics that do not create a perfect 180 degree out of phase AC signal....

For now these are my theories, they have not been proven yet. I just hope others will share how they think the VIC is working. Once we get the VIC figured out the rest will not be that hard.

So everyone reading this please input your thoughts/knowledge/experimentation results etc so we can all learn from each other.

First off the oscope waveforms are from Tony's site Globalkast.com....Thanks to him for all the contributions he has made.

(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11038.JPG)
Description: "Signal from my VIC Transformer at resonance at each output, voltage is 180 degrees out of phase ( separated view )."


 Since each connection provides AC that is 180 out of phase then each voltage zone will change polarity with each pulse as you can see above.

When the two pulses combine they look like this:(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11039.JPG)

The above looks exactly like Meyer's waveforms, but we should realize that the signal is made up of 2 AC signals which are 180 out of phase. All the positive pulses do not go to the positive side of the capacitor as Meyer's diagrams seem to show. All the negative pulses do not go to the negative side of the capacitor as Meyer's diagrams seem to show.

This still is very confusing to me, and I guess everyone else, if it were simple we would have all figured it out by now.

I have tried and tried to get the pulse doubling effect on multisim but no luck. I have also tried to get AC to the water cap and again no luck? Just wondering again how the AC is occuring in a series circuit with a diode?

I'm not sure, I don't want to rule it out though. The vic resonance is something
That really gets me. I tend to think it's the chokes self resonance, which forms a
parallel tank that would limit current and provide an ac frequency, but the ac should
 be rectified by the diode and any series component (i.e. The water cap) would only
get the dc.

Bottom line is, there exists ac in this circuit, how it gets to the water capacitor
Is my question.

so did anyone get it to work?

Yes I know. Stan Meyer does mention using an EEC with water to produce electrical energy in the New Zealand video. I know it wasen't used on the buggy. I'm trying to find out if the gating had more than one purpose in the water fuel cell other than controlling gas production.
 
Anyone?

I don't think so. An inductor (in this case the secondary coil) has an inductive reactance which is directly proportional to frequency. Notice how he increases the frequency from 200 to 950 Hz and when he connects the load at 950 Hz his primary power draw drops. This is due to the high secondary impedance (inductive reactance) being reflected back to the primary coil. It is not OU.