Tube Demo Cell Pictures
Started by unknown · · 48 posts · last reply 7 November 2012
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#26 ·
Please re-read my last post,I made a correction to better clarify the outer tube thickness.
Don -
#27 · date not recorded
Another and quicker way that Stan could have formed the slots
is to have used an abrasive cutting disc. This method makes a lot of sparks and tubes get very hot with some discoloration. -
#28 ·
edit: i wrote this before reading Tony's posts..... It really looks like he has a good grasp on things
I had once posted a calculation on oupower that i thawt the tubes would be 13.4" based on wat i think may have been a flawed theory but now that i think about it once again.... i think the theory may hold some water lol...The reasoning i came up with 13.4 inches was Stan said the frequency for a 3 inch tube was 5 khz..... i came up with 13.4 by adding 3inches for every 5 khz till i came up with 42.8 khz and a length yea of 13.4 inches I havent sit down yet and added it up that way to reach the average length 13" 5/16 but i remember also that someone said Stan may have used 43 some khz... even if adding it up the way i did was backwards it shouldnt be too hard to substract 5khz for every 3 inches of tube length but should still be a harmonic of around the the 43 some khz 
? It looks like from the pictures the theory of a standing wave from the tubes themselves is shot down due to the placement of the power tabs ? The frequency and space between the tubes may not be of importance but Im sure ive read in one of Stans patents that it is.
I also remember Stan saying in a video " when you tune in with voltage " wich seems to refer to the number of turns on the resonate charging chokes and " if you want more volatge " seems to refer to the secondary windings.I would very much like begin with a " reduced to practice " version of his demo cell and wandering if thats possible with just 2 sets of tube cells???
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#29 ·
Please re-read my last post,I made a correction to better clarify the outer tube thickness.
Don
Thats really neat info !!! The spacing between the tubes I think is wats most important with the diffrent outter tube thickness I would believe.The high and low side switch on his electric box is interesting now that we know there were actually 2 diffrent spacings within his tubes wich may not have any relationship at all lol I wish he was here to answer questions .
edit:
Thank you Tony !!! sure looks like you have a " reduced to practice version " nice !!!! -
#30 ·
There allways seemed to be an insulating material over the negative disk wich doesnt seem to be there from the new photo of the bottom
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#31 ·
@sebosfato
The item you are talking about around the container of the cell is a coil. Stan stated that further energy could be translated into the atoms by a pulsating orthogonal magnetic field. If I remember correctly it's the vic coil around the gas proc. Stephen at xogen places their coil under their plate setup. Dingel discovered it with his coil next to a battery.
@John
The thermal explosive yeild was never demo'd. But it is simple, read William Lyne's "occult aether physics". It gives a nice of overview of the atomic hydrogen process and his explanation goes hand n hand with Meyer's. Everyone scratches their head when Meyer talks about "nuclei decay" and hydrogen as an "energy aperture". But Lyne explains that ZPE energy density is a direct relation to freq. All elements below atomic #19 have ZPE characteristics due to their high vibrations. Hydrogen seems to able to act as a conduit for ZPE. This is the basis for Stan's "miniature controllable sun" code name "Easer". Figure out that and you will see what the gas proc is...and why you don't need the volumes of gas everyone is trying for.
Everything Meyer did was to improve efficiency, by recycling electrons released into LED arrays to up energy levels even further, running in resonance, etc...
This being said, why would this man that is trying so hard to raise efficiency within his own system use the incredibly inefficient heat exchanger that is an ICE as is?
(Something like 7% of your gasoline's energy touches the ground...all else is squandered as waste heat...)
Answer....He didn't.
Just think about it, everyone is trying to create volumes of gas to feed into the intake....this is inefficient (plus I don't think an ICE can take repetitive explosions of that intensity). Instead think of this...you feed in through the intake a medium (air), this medium is at ambient temp., you compress this medium, then, you create the third hottest flame known to man (Atomic Hydrogen Flame) into this compressed medium via a plug at the top of the cylinder. You now don't have to rely solely on burning hydrogen, instead you have created a more efficient heat exchanger and saved precious H2.
The "dynamic waveguide" creates different energy fronts....tapered creates more explosive...concave creates more heat....he is talking about the atomic hydrogen flame projection...
Start with the WFC to make the most efficient HHO one can...Then use light and magnetism to manipulate the gasses to higher energy levels (electron ejection)....steal electrons so spontaneous recombination cannot happen.....throw in some ionized air gasses to bind up the oxygen....finally re-energize the mixture to create the spontaneous recombination of H to H2. (This is solidified by Stan saying that the H and O cannot recombine until it can acquire free electrons from the environment)
P.S. This is obviously simplified, I do not know the exact chemical equations, but the process is all there. I cannot be certain this is a pure hydrogen mechanism due to all the ionized gasses, but I guarantee it is the prime mover. -
#32 ·
Hello man, no actually what i'm saying is that even your cell siting on the ground you already have a capacitance between outside ad inside of the cell. I just mean to improve it by adding greater area, witch in turn for every volt let you extract over more electrons from the water. Even a coil if connected in the right way could become this conductor. -
#33 ·
My ultimate theory......
Regular electrolysis supplies electrons along with the voltage potential (grounded transformer, if any transformer at all). Since you are supplying the electrons, you add electrolyte to make it conduct large amounts of current for high yield. But, whenever electrons flow they collide making heat which impinges on their flow...creating losses.
Stan's setup supplies no extra electrons...he uses an ungrounded transformer....complete electrical isolation.
Think about it...how would we supply electrons into the water if the input circuit only pulses the primary?
Answer....we don't/can't
Any and all electrons that flow have to come from the secondary side of the setup...secondary, chokes and WFC
I know it may seem like a very simple concept...but, the truth is in the detail.
Knowing this simple fact, let us re-examine
Since the primary will definitely create an induced voltage potential across the secondary, why are people who created rather nice replicas not seeing much gas production?
Well, it's because of that deceptively simple fact...no electrons are added. Because any electron flow through the secondary side of things is an externally driven (magnetic not electronic) closed loop...meaning, as an electron leaves the WFC one is coming back in....NO NET CHANGE!! (serpent eating its own tail)
You may say...well it's the same in regular electrolysis...and it is (in regards to how electrons flow)...however, the difference is the fact that along with your voltage potential, you are supplying electrons above and beyond equilibrium...this fuels chemical reactions, raises temp, and costs a lot since you are directly killing your dipole.
So, what's my point?
Ever wonder why the EEC in one of Stan's patents is just a bulb in series with the WFC? Ever wonder why every individual cell has it's own special resistor on the negative?
These electrons need something to do...by temporarily going into the EEC they are temporarily not in the water...when this happens, you have time for the water to seperate and move. Orthagonal fields help move these momentary ions out of the zone of dissasociation/re-association
I submit this VERY OLD video (I don't post on Youtube anymore) on the peculiar behavior of an ungrounded resonant transformer...Odd how it operates in contrary to "how it should" and actually gets brighter with more LEDs in series (my last Physics Prof didn't have much to say, other than, "Shouldn't be happening"...pshhh Academia hah)...I should of plunged em in water and see if I got some EVGray action...lol
Cold Electricity...oooohhh ahhhhh
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#34 ·
Radiant,
Yes, the thing is to go for complete electrical isolation. This way you can provide way to take the electrons out of the water while not allowing them to leak from ground back into it. So you can give to the water a net charge that interacts at atomic levels changing the time share rate of the electrons witch in turn switch off the covalent bounding.
The amp consuming device could be a lamp or a heating element but would work even better if you are able to complicate it in the right way.
If the positivity of the water is feed back into the primary thru a switching diode a positive feedback would result cause thru the ground not only the electrons going to the battery will go the positive side of the battery but extra electrons must pass thru the primary to stabilize the water.
This would create a positive feedback. Resonance.
Stan said that the electricity of the water (water as energy source) could be than go to the primary than restrict the amps allow voltage to take over... So it become a self oscillating system and works till there is water in the bucket. -
#35 · date not recorded
Interesting theory, Radiant!
Have you tried such an EEC setup?
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#36 · date not recorded
The Video you show, when you add more leds in series you are changing the impedance, probably you are reaching the point of greater energy transfer. This happens when the input impedance is = to the load impedance.
For example you have a 50ohms impedance source, than you have a transformer having a transformation factor of 10 than your load must have 5000ohms for maximum transfer.
If you have for example 100v and two amps you have 50ohm.
And if you have 1000v 0,2amps you have 5000ohms load. -
#37 · date not recorded
Sure, impedance matching transfers most Power...however, this operation is subtle.
It is being pulsed by an astable 555, only one half of the oscillation is being used (DC). If this transformer was being driven in a normal manner (AC) than impedance matching becomes important because you have the input/output always linked via rolling AC wave (which creates a constant flux). However, in pulsed DC you have further isolation because of 50/50 duty cycle, whereas the largest induced potential is created after the primary is shut off (infinite impedance on primary). Also, what about when I hold the LED chain and it lights up? I couldn't record and do this, but, it lit up even when I had each part in different hands...across my arms and chest.
P.S. The primary, is around 24ga. and the secondary is fine hairlike wire...probably around 36ga....so, how would adding more resistance to the already much higher impeded secondary match these impedance? It wouldn't, it would maximize impedance bridging effect, whereas it is maximizing voltage transfer.
Furthermore, my multimeter shows 200+v, so does my O-scope, in spikes (It will step charge 12000uf caps up to this potential). This potential should destroy LEDs, yet it doesn't...
Anyway, I don't need to convince myself that the same circuit with a grounded secondary would destroy LEDs...If it clicks it clicks.
@Steve
Thanks,
And yes I have, and so have others (Dave Lawton, Ravi, etc)....This is where his Cold Electricity claim comes in! -
#38 · date not recorded
Actually I think we want an impedance match with the coils only and a MISmatch with the WFC. -
#39 · date not recorded
Impedance matching optimizes the POWER transfer...Power=Watts
We are not trying to put watts into the secondary, we want voltage (Hence VIC)...google impedance bridging, enough said.
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#40 ·
It appears as though the slots could have been cut with a hacksaw and the bottom squared off with a small triangular
or flat file. There are definite angled marks on the edges of
slots. The slots on each tube are directly opposed fom each
other. This does not look like a milling bit was used. It is very rough.
I'm willing to bet that Stan made the slots for ease of assembly.
He wanted his cross drilled plastic rods for centering the top of the tubes to be down inside the tube a bit so he made the slots.
If he had to push the cross rods far into the tubes they may have been loose or broken from pushing far inside and not aligned very well.
Thus he could have them farther down by putting in the slots and then just moving the rods down only a half inch or so from the bottom of the slots.
That is the only reason I can think or for them to be there since it was not for tuning the tubes.
As Don said, the tubes are very crude and of different sizes so no tuning.
Cheers,
JP -
#41 · date not recorded
I just finished my tube cell the other day, i'm using nylon spacers filled in holes at the inner tubes.... it gets in with some pressure... each tube set has 190pf with air..
measuring with the lrc meter it shows 13mf for one and 8mf for the other... DC TESTED... but theres an explanation that, my inner tubes were coated to different degrees with nickel and pd. so their effective contact area is different although same physical sizes and separation...
Anyway if 81 dielectric constant was to be accounted the tubes should have around 16nf... but i guess the pseudocapacitance effect is greater due to liquid interface.
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#42 ·
I wish i still had my tube sets.. x wife thru everything away.I had some piks on ironheads old site builders somethin,hell i cant even remember the name that site, i had alot of piks on oupower.com as well but i thought the way i done it was rather great.I used hole saws on a drill press and actually made a sealed tube set at the bottom that way by cutting an inch of the bottom of the tubes up from the bottom half off so that i would have a flat tab on the bottom after hammering it then i used the same size drill bit as the wall thickness of the tubes to get the tab into the slots that were matched great with hole saw cutters.I had 3 tubes in my sets.It worked great drilling the hole cuts all the way thru the plastic and then quarting them for the tops of the tubes.My handle was kewlhead on ironheads old private site if anyone can get my piks i would greatly appreciate it.The ones on oupower.com are probably lost forever with the construction detail. I miss my tube cells
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#43 ·
Two of the more significant replications consider acoustic resonance to be important. Dave Lawton and Scott Cramton. See attached
Dave attached brackets at the nodal point. Cramton tuned like wind.chimes
If may be that the sympathetic vibrations help to release the gas bubbles more quicky leading to a more constant release of bubbles and greater stability of the dialectric characteristics of the cell.. In the
variable plate video ( where the plates are fixed and do not vibrate)in the Stanley Meyer Estate material the oscillation of bubble release is seen, whereas in the Cluster Tube Array cell the gas release is more constant. A variation in the amount a water between the plates causes by a periodic release of bubbles would likely cause a variation in the capacitance of the cell .
A more rapid release of gas bubbles may result in a greater effective plate surface area exposed to water and increased gas yeilds. However, "an ease of construction" cannot be discounted in Stanley Meyer's contsruction but it is felt that the coefficent of friction between the nylon cross pieces and the inside of the outer stainless tube would remain the same whether or not the nylon is sliding across the first ,mid section or end of the inner stainless electrode. In otherwords the force needed to slide the nylon accross the stainles steel tube remeains regardless of the position of the nylon peg
The electrical resonance,however, is entirely a different matter
attachment_11688 attachment_11690 cramton acoustic.png lawton acoustic.png
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#44 ·
what would be the significance of the added metal under the circular negative plate resting just above the bottom of the cell? -
#45 · date not recorded
A conductive grounding plate is used in the Meyer and other replications. Generally one tube is free to vibrate acoustically while the other is fixed but the main function is primarily as a structural component it the construction.
Due to the relatively greater distance between the grounding plate and the charged surfaces of the inner and outer stainless tubes, while it may as some effect, the main capacitance is occurring between the outer surface fo the smaller diameter tube and the inner surface of the larger diameter outer tubes -
#46 · date not recorded
Two of the more significant replications consider acoustic resonance to be important. Dave Lawton and Scott Cramton. See attached
Dave attached brackets at the nodal point. Cramton tuned like wind.chimes
If may be that the sympathetic vibrations help to release the gas bubbles more quicky leading to a more constant release of bubbles and greater stability of the dialectric characteristics of the cell.. In the
variable plate video ( where the plates are fixed and do not vibrate)in the Stanley Meyer Estate material the oscillation of bubble release is seen, whereas in the Cluster Tube Array cell the gas release is more constant. A variation in the amount a water between the plates causes by a periodic release of bubbles would likely cause a variation in the capacitance of the cell .
A more rapid release of gas bubbles may result in a greater effective plate surface area exposed to water and increased gas yeilds. However, "an ease of construction" cannot be discounted in Stanley Meyer's contsruction but it is felt that the coefficent of friction between the nylon cross pieces and the inside of the outer stainless tube would remain the same whether or not the nylon is sliding across the first ,mid section or end of the inner stainless electrode. In otherwords the force needed to slide the nylon accross the stainles steel tube remeains regardless of the position of the nylon peg
The electrical resonance,however, is entirely a different matter
I'm going to discuss this aspect with my EE but for now I must say the first paragraph of the Lawton paper makes little sense in light of the actual pictures of Stan's 9 tube cell.
Lawton says,
"This cross-sectional view may be slightly misleading as it suggests that each of the outer pipes has its own separate bracket and this is probably not the case as they are connected together electrically through the steel ring-shaped disc and should vibrate as a single unit."
This is not true a one can see from the Estate photo (attached) that the outer tubes do have their own connections and it is the inner tubes which have the ring-base connector. He actually seems to be describing it backwards.
"It is tempting to use separate brackets as that would allow the assembly to be taken apart quite easily, but the electrical contacts of such a system would be inferior and so it is not to be recommended."
But that is exactly what Stan did. He has one wire to the center tube ring connection and another single switched wire to each outer tube connection.
I believe he did this so he so he could demonstrate the different amount of power needed versus gas production when from 1 to 9 tubes were activated.
Also as to the bracket connection at some "node" percentage of the tube, this too appears to not be the case from looking at the photos of Stan's cell. One can see that the positioning of the spot welded brackets is inconsistent as to their position which would not be expected if each tube is almost identical. The brackets hardly look like they are at a 22% position as well.
Also attached is the original photo of Ted Zittergren's cell. Ted was literally the first person to post in the sci.energy.hydrogen newsgroup in 1998 his success at replicating Meyer's basic process.
Ted knew Mathias Johanson, Meyer's expert witness.
As you can see he has a 19 tube cell and it would appear that there is no consideration for this acoustic tuning of his tubes.
Also in my email correspondence with him about his results he never makes any mention of such tuning of the tubes.
Here is that original post.
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer's Court Case
From: "Ted Zettergren" <ted.zettergren@swipnet.se>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:59:28 +0100
John Feiereisen skrev i meddelandet <756atu$mkn$1@client2.news.psi.net>...
>For those of you who are unfamiliar, Stanley Meyer patented some
>equipment for fueling an IC engine with hydrogen. In addition to this
>legitimate work, he claimed to be able decompose water into hydrogen
>and oxygen with >100% thermal efficiency, thereby inventing a
>"water-powered car". He sold "marketing rights" for this technology
>to unsuspecting people, one of whom is a regular reader of s.e.h.
>
>Back a couple years, a couple of his investors got wise to his scam
>and took him to court, where Meyer was found guilty of "gross and
>egregious fraud" and ordered to repay those 'investors'. As far as I
>know, those were the only 'investors' who ever recouped their
>'investment'. Meyer died earlier this year and his followers insist
>he was poisoned (all good perpetual motion inventors are stalked by
>THE CONSPIRACY).
>
>After being found guilty of fraud, Meyer sent a long rambling letter
>to the remainder of his 'investors', obviously hoping to ward off a
>spate of trials which would have drained him of his ill-gotten gains.
>It was replete with conspiracy paranoia and claimed that a recording
>device in the courtroom was turned off so the judge (obviously working
>under the direction of THE CONSPIRACY) could railroad Meyer into an
>unjust guilty verdict.
>
>As far as I know, Meyer's home base was Grove City, Ohio, and the
>court case took place in Shelby county, Ohio. I am going to be
>passing through Ohio in a couple weeks and Grove City is but 3 miles
>off my planned route. I can pass through Shelby county with only
>minor adjustment of my planned route through Indiana. I figured I'd
>stop in at the courthouse and see if I can pick up copies of the
>records of the trial.
>
>Does anybody know precisely where and when the trial took place?
>City, county, etc., date(s) Possibly an official case name?
>
>Thanks.
>
VERY GOOD Mr. Feiereisen
Take a copy of the tape fromx that trial and put it on the Real Player
so we all can listen to what really happened in the Court.
The most interesting is to hear what the WFC Expert Witnesses and
Electrical Engineer Mathias Johanson has to say.
The first part of the trial started on Thursday/Friday, 1/2 February
1996 before Judge William Corzine III at the Common Pleas Court,
Chillicothe, Ohio.
By the way. If you like to do some experiment, try this.
AT FIRST:
You must know the difference between a chemical reaction and a
nuclear reaction. A lot of people don't understand that but they like
to argue a lot in every NG on Internet.
In a chemical reaction you need a lot of current and some salt for
making the water conductive.
In a nuclear reaction you don't need any current at all, only high
voltage. How much current you need in a real application depends
on how clean your water is. As cleaner as better.
Stanley Meyers method's have NOTHING to do with chemical
reactions.
HOW TO?
As a guide, you need US Patent 4,936,961 ref. figure 1 to 3F.
If you read something about magical frequencyis, forget that.
It works fine with 10KHz or something else if you preferred.
Use 50% duty cycle. BUT! the frequency will be doubled in the
step up circuit and that's the frequency the Water-Cell will work
with. The components must resist at least 2000V.
The Water-Cell is very simple. Take a lot of stainless steel tubes
with the inner diameter of the bigger tube 3mm bigger than the outer
diameter of the inner tube. From now you must look at this
Water-Cell as a capacitor with water as dilectricum.
The Water-Cell and the INDUCTOR will resonate at a specific
frequency. It's a normal RC-circuit.
Now the most important: The Water-Cell/Inductor frequency and
the doubled frequency from the generator must be exactly the
same. A special condition exists in a L/C Circuit, when it is
energized at a frequency at which the inductive reactance is equal
to the capacitive reactance, XL = XC.
Adjust the voltage peak level to reach a maximum hydrogen/oxygen
producing with a minimum of current using. If you earlier make
hydrogen with the electrolysis method with a lot of current,
this experiment will really surprise you.
For even less current you can make some experiment with a
centertapped puls-transformer.
Have a nice trip to Ohio!
Ted
(End post)
Anyways, to me this doesn't appear that Stan went to the trouble described by Cramton.
Although Stan never mentioned anything about this aspect to me in our discussions that doesn't mean it wasn't something he had done.
Until someone does actual gas production testing with "balanced" and unbalanced tubes I suppose it will remain unresolved.
Cheers,
JP
attachment_11692 attachment_11694 PICT0066.JPG Cell1.jpg
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#47 · date not recorded
the weight of that added solid looking stainless round stock may be important information... i want to believe it weighed 12lbs in regards to something his brother mentioned in his blog talk interview.I want to think that was very important in getting the tubes to build up its possitive charge.It looks like no negative wire to an earth ground was used only the amount of weight from that solid looking round stock, or could that even have been a spark gap?
Im guessing there was a bolt screwed up into the round stock in the picture of Stans cel -
#48 ·
the weight of that added solid looking stainless round stock may be important information... i want to believe it weighed 12lbs in regards to something his brother mentioned in his blog talk interview.I want to think that was very important in getting the tubes to build up its possitive charge.It looks like no negative wire to an earth ground was used only the amount of weight from that solid looking round stock, or could that even have been a spark gap?
Im guessing there was a bolt screwed up into the round stock in the picture of Stans cel
The round stock is just a connector. It might be 8 oz.
Don had lifted it to replace a leaking O-ring and shot photo.
There was a bolt and electrical connection thru the bottom plastic.
That is why in the shot from above the inner tubes are sticking out a bit.
Stan was really showing this cell in a very crude way.
The "resonant cavity" uses the geometry to enhance the process after basic polarization just as round tubes work better than plates because of the toroid shape.
Stan said, "One of the small resonant cavities will make 3 times more gas than the 9 tube cell.
He was miniaturizing while making it more efficient with the VICs.
The starting point is matching or exceeding the Capacitance with the Induction.
And apply the specs stated by Ted.
If the size, weight, and shape all have something to do with total capacitance, then it is considered.
"The capacitance is a function only of the physical dimensions (geometry) of the conductors and the permittivity of the dielectric. It is independent of the potential difference between the conductors and the total charge on them."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance
The process is dielectric breakdown, decomposition using the voltage and frequency.
But it happens only in the 'voltage zones" between the steel.
What is the amount capacitance in any given cell based it's mass and?
On what is it based? The amount of dielectric between the plates or total mass?
You are dealing with the field between the matching surfaces. Like a magnetic field in the cell.
It's a tank circuit.
You can tune a tank but you can't tune a fish.
In the two plate demo cell he shows that moving the plates closer, the closer physical distance increases gas production.
This is what "Electrical Polarization" is and why different from "electrolysis."
He always ran the generator with the 9 tube cell.
I never saw him do it with the 8Xa box that plugged in the wall.
I hope to be able to run my 9 tubes on the remodeled Alex Perry 8xA circuit and my EE's new coil.
I'm just going to put my tube together and if they don't produce gas I'll try some adjustments if that's what my EE thinks the tubes need
My 8xa from stansdream.com and a single set of 6 inch tubes produced gas right away but my inductor and cell where getting warm.
My EE is testing another circuit now.
You can read about my adventures here:
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=733
Good luck,
JP
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