HV and hydroxy
Started by unknown · · 71 posts · last reply 8 January 2010
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#26 ·
This is Tad. What can I do for you? It looks like there are now quite a few folks that are replicating the Old Meyer system like I did, but with different HV schemes. Looks like it can be done many ways. I just hope these other systems were more reliable than my experiment showed.
This guy is pretty interesting. He seems pretty high strung to be messing with the Meyer stuff but none the less = )
http://www.waterforfuel.com/product4.html
P.S. HV is not 120-500VDC, High voltage that Stan had stated is 600V-10KV. Stan told me he could electrolyze one gallon of water per minute using 10KV of potential. I was only using 1200VDC. -
#27 ·
This is Tad. What can I do for you? It looks like there are now quite a few folks that are replicating the Old Meyer system like I did, but with different HV schemes. Looks like it can be done many ways. I just hope these other systems were more reliable than my experiment showed.
This guy is pretty interesting. He seems pretty high strung to be messing with the Meyer stuff but none the less = )
http://www.waterforfuel.com/product4.html
P.S. HV is not 120-500VDC, High voltage that Stan had stated is 600V-10KV. Stan told me he could electrolyze one gallon of water per minute using 10KV of potential. I was only using 1200VDC.
Hi Tad,
Welcome to Ionizationx.com!
I hoped for this to happen after the emails from Fiditti and myself to you.
You are as far as i know the whole Waterfuelcell world the only on that ever duplicated Stans work proper.
As you can see on the forum, we have some guys here who are good researchers, but what we miss is the final link.
Nobody has done what you reported some years ago.
We would like to replicate your setup and see if we also can achieve the 12watts / 3 ltrs production figures.
I know you told that the circuit is pretty unstable, but we have then a point from where we can start developing it.
What we would like from you is a description of what the variables are and which components you used for that.
I know its a lot to ask.....but would it help if i added a "please"?
br
Steve
Administrator Ionizationx
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#28 ·
Nice and exciting to have you here Tad . Hope to see you sharing your replication with us. -
#29 · date not recorded
Ok Tad,
This is what you wrote about your setup:Quote1. Pulsing circuit or power supply capable of producing 600+ Volts @ 20Khz+ @ 100uA+. My
system was a simple, off the shelf inverter with an input of 12VDC and an output of 1200VAC
@ 20Khz @ 1mA. I then took this circuit and modified the circuit to run at 42.5-43.0Khz. This
was an off-the- shelf inverter sold by Fry's electronics. It is a neon power supply with a very
small bobbin core transformer. Anyone can buy this circuit or one just like it and modify it to
run within the specs I gave you. The hard part is obtaining resonance which takes years of
electronics expertise to do.
2. A small electrolysis cell with the ability to vary distance between conductors.
3. 2 - Chokes, one adjustable, one fixed.
4. One high voltage diode to go in-line with the cathode of the power supply output.
5. Inductance Meter, Capacitance meter, frequency counter/Oscilloscope, and high voltage
probe.
The key to the Meyer process is resonance, and without resonance the system produces no gas.
At 12 watts you see why no gas is produced without resonance. This is a standard LC resonant
circuit in which you MUST (!) match Capacitive reactance with Inductive reactance. This then
creates an LC resonant circuit in which the two legs of the power supply match in frequency
exactly. A Ham calc make the calculation of resonance easy once you know the capacitance of
the cell and the frequency you are driving it at.
Once you have your inductance calculated you
then buy the proper chokes that fall within the inductance range needed. The adjustable one
needs (obviously) to be tunable within a small range, so that when the cell temperature changes
and causes the capacitance of the cell to change, then the inductance can also be changed to
keep the cell in resonance. If your cell has the ability to vary distance between conductors, then
you simply change the distance and thus change the capacitance of the cell rather than changing
the inductance. You must vary one or the other though. I have found since then that the
capacitance of the cell can be changed and works just as well as the inductors being adjusted.
You don't use ANY electrolyte, you don't want ANY amperage at all, only voltage @
resonance.
REPEAT, YOU DON'T NEED ANY CURRENT FLOW, ONLY VOLTAGE!
What I found frustrating is that the cell temperature would change and the system would stop
making gas. In order to keep the system making gas you constantly have to keep the cell in
resonance, and thus you really need the system to be controlled by a processor, that constantly
checks frequency on both legs and then adjusts inductance to keep the cell in resonance. This is
why Stanley move to the other patents where the spark plus type of electrolysis chamber was
used instead of a large cell. +
With the cell running at 1200Volts @ 1mA @ 42.8Khz I found I could make 200LP/H of gas.
Do the math and you will find that this is impossible given our current understanding of
electrolysis. If you scale this equation up you will find that you can make over 20,000LP/H of
gas for 1200Watts. This is easily enough to run most any Internal combustion engine. The
only problem has been keeping the cell in tune. An alternator will easily produce 3000 watts of
power, so this is easily enough to power the car on this system alone. This is how the
Volkswagen Buggy was running around on water only. The car has to wait a minute or two
before he stored enough gas to run the car, then once it was started and running it would make
enough gas to run the car at up to 60MPH. I never saw this car run personally, but I have two
people that went to two showings and both said it worked and they verified there was no
gasoline on board.
I have here a nice small off-the- shelf inverter sold by Fry's electronics. without load it produces 7kv
See picture!
I do have a HV probe for my scope as well.
And i have tons of Stainless tubes and plates. So i can do whatever i can here.
1.: Is it 42khz a must?
2.: what type of chokes must it be? Please size and turns and wire thickness.
3.: Did you hookup the diode up to the choke, like Stan did? Actually you made a half rectification of the AC voltage from the inverter trafo?
4.: What gapspace between inductors?
5.: any insulation needed for inductors? Why didnt you get a deadshort condition between the 2 legs of the trafo?
6.: I understand LC. But are the inductorplates/tubes the C? And if so, how do you calculate the C. If i hookup my C meter i measure a leaking capacitor. So at the end i cannot say exactly what the capacitance is...How did you measure yours?
7.: Is the end goal a charging from chokes to cell and back. Is that the resonance we are looking for? A DC resonance system?
Hope you want to provide us with this info.
br
Steveattachment_2300 12112008.jpg
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#30 · date not recorded
Tad , where did you hear about the frequency needs to be 42 khz ?
i thought this was the larmor frequency and it was a variable depending on the fields strenght ?
google : larmor frequency -
#31 · date not recorded
Tad, I've read your post from overunity.com over and over and over.....
Is your setup a parallel LC circuit?
The reason I ask, is because you emphasize inductive and capacitive reactance must match.
In my experience when they match in a series circuit you get maximum power transferal at the resonate frequency.
Whereas in a parallel circuit it acts like a bandstop filter which should allow maximum voltage across the water capacitor.
I've wanted to ask this question, along with some of the others listed for a long time, but I don't like to pester people.
Stevie and or Hydrocar, are you ever going to give the details on your HV experiment? Been waiting patiently.
Mikemongo -
#32 · date not recorded
Hey tad , like Stevie i am also wondering how you calculate the capacitance of a tap water capacitor... I also measured my tap water but it was 0 capacitance.... a leaking capacitor... how exactly did you calculate yours ?
Did you add a coating so that you could use regular water ? I wanna make this work with regular tap water ...
Also i am wondering why you chose 48khz
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#33 · date not recorded
Hey tad , like Stevie i am also wondering how you calculate the capacitance of a tap water capacitor... I also had it measured but it was 0 capacitance.... a leaking capacitor... how exactly did you calculate yours ?
Also i am wondering why you chose 48khz
Also , i was wondering if you could post a basic picture of your connection or photo or your setup ... maybe take a picture that doesnt reveal much but gives us an idea
if you have a multimeter you can measure it's capacitance......easy as that. -
#34 · date not recorded
TAD sorry for the annoying voice in the background...
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=870
So you say you need to adjust the inductance ? I love what 2curious has done with the sliding core i think is better than having a slider on the negative choke ... what do you think of this idea ?
How do you adjust your inductance what kind of slider ?
Can we see what you did to the negative choke plz? Maybe take a pic of the construction and hide all other details ?...
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#35 · date not recorded
Tad, you seem like your quite a few steps ahead of everyone else!
Why change the inductance though?
Why not just use fixed inductors and change the frequency using electronics like you mentioned.
I have heard of several people who have replicated the following circuit of Stan's and they have claimed that it worked. From what I understand the circuit is used for resonant frequency locking.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/xbradkx/mEYERSCOMPLETECIRCUITS.jpg)
Have you tried this circuit?
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#36 · date not recorded
You there Unclefester
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#37 ·
I think the 42.8KHz is from keely literature which mention water vaporize when physically pulsed at that frequency. It is mentioned in Dale Ponds video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&ei=lIAeSerEOIeAwgPEncT3BQ&q=%22dale+pond%22
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561&ei=lIAeSerEOIeAwgPEncT3BQ&q=%22dale+pond%22
I wonder if what everyone trying to achieve is 85.6KHz DC sinewave (sine wave but never going trough zero)? At the second part Dale pond mention that when Keely mention about 42.8KHz it could be 85.6KHz.
Base from the video, I assume that we can get greater energy by using double frequency, for example 85.6KHz, 171.2KHz, 342.4KHz, ... -
#38 · date not recorded
I think the 42.8KHz is from keely literature which mention water vaporize when physically pulsed at that frequency. It is mentioned in Dale Ponds video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&ei=lIAeSerEOIeAwgPEncT3BQ&q=%22dale+pond%22
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561&ei=lIAeSerEOIeAwgPEncT3BQ&q=%22dale+pond%22
I wonder if what everyone trying to achieve is 85.6KHz DC sinewave (sine wave but never going trough zero)? At the second part Dale pond mention that when Keely mention about 42.8KHz it could be 85.6KHz.
Base from the video, I assume that we can get greater energy by using double frequency, for example 85.6KHz, 171.2KHz, 342.4KHz, ...
Ive seen somebody who tried this with just a straight pwm pulsed dc , it did nothing...
What kind of pulse ? how much voltage ?
I'm sure alot of people tried this with their dave lawtons setup... -
#39 · date not recorded
Ok he does mention 42,8 khz.... but he then says he didnt find anything special about it ... I'm sure of it was true we would have tons of reports about this...
Maybe Unclefester could explain more ?
Unclefester you there
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#40 ·
I'd guess the energy used was all vibrational .. Keely used acoustic vibrational energy, why not try acoustic/ultrasonic frequencies.
I've heard the physical / vibrational frequency of water is within khz range. -
#41 ·
I think if we want to replicate John Keely work we need to use sine wave. Or if we want to replicate Tesla / David Gray work we need to use perfect square wave. High voltage should increase the effect. But I guess it's hard thing to achieve.
Would the circuit I post bellow work for making DC sinewave?
edit:
Just realize that it should have been L3 that has to have more voltage, maybe twice L2 does.
Dale Pond mention Keely may use physical movement to vaporize water instead of sound. But other literature mention that it use sound:
"A means of acoustically dissociating water, instantly exploding 3 drops to produce pressures up to 29,000 pounds per square inch"
http://www.frank.germano.com/svp.htm
Newer literature mention that we can have high efficiency water electrolysis if we use very high temperature. It mention that water electrolysis at nuclear reactor heat waste is very efiicient, using H2SO4 and temperature of 800 degree celcius.
If we can dissociating water at room temperature with vibration, I think we could get more efficient electrolysis. I hope it wont instantly burn like salt water microwave (kanzius?)
attachment_2328 attachment_2330 ScanImage001.gif ScanImage002.gif
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#42 ·
Tad,
I've tried to contact you via email and PM for several weeks now, I would like to replicate your experiments from the late 90's ...
I've searched in vain through sci.energy.hydrogen news groups for your posts....
Can you please provide details for your experiment?
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#43 ·
The setup (remembering now 12 years ago) was an inverter I had setup for variable frequency and could only be tuned over a small range. I used adjustable chokes on cathode and anode sides. There is a major problem with this cell setup in that it is leaky as stated by Meyer (which I did not understand at the time). Stan told me "resistance is the key". What he meant by that was that the cell voltage will reach zero too quickly and thus the cell will not stay charged. Adding resistance across the secondary portion of the circuit (cell side) allows less leakage and allows the cell to stay charged and producing H2. If you simply use a brute force method with lots of current at the higher voltages it defeats the purpose of the whole process since we want very tiny amounts of current and only high voltages.
Of course all of this has now been solved by JLN and others and it is a simple matter of following their experiments. I am no longer working on this system for the same reason Meyer dropped it. It is a touchy, frustrating process in which constant control of the pulse parameters MUST be kept or else the cell stops producing gas, and ven then there are much better processes to use. Others have found the same problems and dropped it entirely. It is better to use a plasma and break a water vapor up as it enters the intake of the engine.
The setup below shows a much better way to break water, even though it is not exactly what Stan was doing with the "Water Plug".
I hope that helps a little. Sorry I have not been around much, I have been trying to feed my family and work on more advanced experiments on the weekends. This leaves me literally NO TIME to respond, or help any further than I have. In fact, one of the reasons I came back to look at some posts was that Dankie was calling me a fraud on multiple experimentation sites. Even though he does not know me nor was he there, nor had he seen the results of these crude, early experiments. Even though my wife told me not to respond and simply let it go, I felt the need to at least defend myself if he was going to be as ignorant about these posts of his. So I will clarify anything I can for you but I will not respond any further if I am going to be continuously a fraud or fake.
Tad -
#44 ·
ted your description is very vauge
what was you approimate
choke size
wire size
core material
tube size Length,Height,Diameter
and number of tubes
also using that small sine wave generator with the laminated transformer at 42.8khz was their alot of distortion in the output signal -
#45 ·
ted your description is very vauge
what was you approimate
choke size
wire size
core material
tube size Length,Height,Diameter
and number of tubes
also using that small sine wave generator with the laminated transformer at 42.8khz was their alot of distortion in the output signal
Do not wait for an answer .
Najman -
#46 ·
ted your description is very vauge
what was you approimate
choke size
wire size
core material
tube size Length,Height,Diameter
and number of tubes
also using that small sine wave generator with the laminated transformer at 42.8khz was their alot of distortion in the output signal
Do not wait for an answer .
Najman
couldnt have said it any better
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#47 ·
I sure would remember my working setup ...
I think i would have it tatooed on my back with egyptian letters or some shit ... -
#48 · date not recorded
The setup (remembering now 12 years ago) was an inverter I had setup for variable frequency and could only be tuned over a small range. I used adjustable chokes on cathode and anode sides. There is a major problem with this cell setup in that it is leaky as stated by Meyer (which I did not understand at the time). Stan told me "resistance is the key". What he meant by that was that the cell voltage will reach zero too quickly and thus the cell will not stay charged. Adding resistance across the secondary portion of the circuit (cell side) allows less leakage and allows the cell to stay charged and producing H2. If you simply use a brute force method with lots of current at the higher voltages it defeats the purpose of the whole process since we want very tiny amounts of current and only high voltages.
Of course all of this has now been solved by JLN and others and it is a simple matter of following their experiments. I am no longer working on this system for the same reason Meyer dropped it. It is a touchy, frustrating process in which constant control of the pulse parameters MUST be kept or else the cell stops producing gas, and ven then there are much better processes to use. Others have found the same problems and dropped it entirely. It is better to use a plasma and break a water vapor up as it enters the intake of the engine.
The setup below shows a much better way to break water, even though it is not exactly what Stan was doing with the "Water Plug".
I hope that helps a little. Sorry I have not been around much, I have been trying to feed my family and work on more advanced experiments on the weekends. This leaves me literally NO TIME to respond, or help any further than I have. In fact, one of the reasons I came back to look at some posts was that Dankie was calling me a fraud on multiple experimentation sites. Even though he does not know me nor was he there, nor had he seen the results of these crude, early experiments. Even though my wife told me not to respond and simply let it go, I felt the need to at least defend myself if he was going to be as ignorant about these posts of his. So I will clarify anything I can for you but I will not respond any further if I am going to be continuously a fraud or fake.
Tad
Thank you for sharing ...
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#49 · date not recorded
ted your description is very vauge
what was you approimate
choke size
wire size
core material
tube size Length,Height,Diameter
and number of tubes
also using that small sine wave generator with the laminated transformer at 42.8khz was their alot of distortion in the output signal
choke size - don't remember, it's been 12 years you need to use an LC resonance calc to find it for your cell
wire size - don't remember it's been 12 years
core material - pre-made inverter, so it was probably a ferrox cube (high frequency ferrite) as usual
tube size Length,Height,Diameter - attaching picture, it's all I have
and number of tubes - see attached picture
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2la6crp.jpg)
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2ut59g6.jpg)
(http://i37.tinypic.com/161c9aq.jpg)
This experiment was a few pieces cobbled together since I had very little electronics skills back then, and minimal machining capability. It took 6 months to see any results, and over a year before I ended up with 13.33 Liters per watt/per hour, and that was with Stan Meyers help (asking questions through my friend John Weider). There have been three different experiments that are current and could be followed. If you want to cobble a bunch of junk together like I did, that's ok, I will pull out all the parts and give you the part numbers and values, but JLN and others have much much better setups. Although this process alone is not worth playing with if you are trying to get a small engine to run solely on water. It requires processor controls like I have built many times now for different processes, Processor setup and even then it's not the right process for running vehicles solely on water. Folks, this is why Meyer dropped the process. Do you want a model A or a modern mustang GT?
Tell me if you need anything else. I will devote hours to this if it will help you, although I could show you much better setups to follow, including JLN's:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm
P.S. Don't even think about attempting this experiment without at least a few years electronics experience and a good scope, LCR meter, DVM's, and lots of time.
Tad
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#50 · date not recorded
tad part numbers and values would be helpfull
according to your blueprint you ran a 1/4 gap with a 1 inch od tube and a 3/8 bar am i correct in what i read