HV and hydroxy
Started by unknown · · 71 posts · last reply 8 January 2010
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#51 · date not recorded
Thanks Tad for writing some answers here.
You know as well as I that there are many people proclaiming stuff that isnt true.
I ll guess that Dankie had a bad feeling because of those people.
I understand from your email and your posting that you are not the biggest
fan of that HV setup.
But, many here are willing to find that out too.
Thanks for telling about the need for resistance.
I read you telling that you did that experiment 12 years ago and that details are difficult to remember.
Am i right, if i resume your details here:
Pulsing 1200v DC or higher
some coils
a resistor in line with wfc
Resonance between coils and WFC? Or is it resonance in the coils?
About JNL, he said he used insulated tubes. Did you use insulated tubes?
br
steve
Ps.
I also do not always listen the mrs...
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#52 · date not recorded
@Tad -
Thanks for sharing, again thank you...
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#53 · date not recorded
tad part numbers and values would be helpfull
according to your blueprint you ran a 1/4 gap with a 1 inch od tube and a 3/8 bar am i correct in what i read
That must have been the wrong drawing. I used 1mm gap as per Stan's instructions.
1. Secondary inductance needs to be taken into account also when looking for resonance.
2. Bifilar wound choke like JLN's is best because they are magnetically coupled.
3. Power supply must be capable of enough current to get the process started. Mine only gave a few milliamperes and it was tough to overcome the loss of the cell leaking down after every pulse. It may be possible to add a few picofarad cap in parallel with the cell in order to store up a small charge to keep the cell from leaking down to zero after each pulse. Small inverters like I used are very low on current and will make major headaches.
4. Probably better to use a flyback core (ferrite) and wind it with the appropriate number of turns in order to maximize current and have a wide frequency capabilty. Mine only had a narrow range and thus was difficult to tune to the frequency given by the resonance calc. Snubbers may be needed in order to not fry your mosfets or which ever transistor you are using. Once the effect is established, the pulse width can be narrowed in order to reduce current and thereby increase efficiency.
5. True Meyer process requires at least 500 to 600 volts to see the real effect. Don't try running a high current 12VDC system and then call it Meyer process, it is NOT.
6. Visual output can be deceiving, use a jug filled with water upside down in a 5 gallon can and measure using that method at least. I used a Cole Parmer gas flow meter on my experiments since it was the most accurate way I could measure real output.
7. When temperature changes, you can expect the cell to stop making gas since it will change the capacitance of the cell and throw off your resonance calculations. A processor is the only way I can find to easily control this tuning issue.
8. Cell can use many different types of water according to Stan, but I only used distilled water. No chemicals (sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, etc) in the cell! No electrolyte!
9. Don't attach your scope probes to the cell directly, it will be seeing wide voltage swings due to resonance. In later experiments I built a 100 Megaohm resistor to use in series with my probes in order to not fry my Tektronics scope.
I will try and dig up the original components and take pictures of them. Although they are all available from common electronics stores and the HV inverters are cheap over at Information unlimited's site. Although you will have very limited control over frequency when you use these types of power supplies. Best to use the power supplies I have been building for my plasma experiments I have been contracted to perform (already posted this video). These use a PIC16F876 processor and use two of the PWM outputs (CCP1 and CCP2) for pulsing high voltage step up transformers. It also uses a snubber network since the 600 volt mosfets I am using will not handle the transients on the primary.
Tad
http://www.amazing1.com/hv-hf-power-supplies.htm
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#54 · date not recorded
Thanks Tad for writing some answers here.
You know as well as I that there are many people proclaiming stuff that isnt true.
I ll guess that Dankie had a bad feeling because of those people.
I understand from your email and your posting that you are not the biggest
fan of that HV setup.
But, many here are willing to find that out too.
Thanks for telling about the need for resistance.
I read you telling that you did that experiment 12 years ago and that details are difficult to remember.
Am i right, if i resume your details here:
Pulsing 1200v DC or higher
some coils
a resistor in line with wfc
Resonance between coils and WFC? Or is it resonance in the coils?
About JNL, he said he used insulated tubes. Did you use insulated tubes?
br
steve
Ps.
I also do not always listen the mrs...
My tubes were not insulated but that would help greatly in power consumption and capacitance would not float all over the place.
It's not that I am not a fan of HV electrolysis, it's that like Meyer I understand why it is not best to use a submerged in water type of scheme. It is a very poor way to get engine running on water. It requires cumbersome tanks and filtered water, and complex electronic setups which can cause many headaches. A much much better process is to use a water vapor and break it up using less than the energy of a submerged cell and yet without any constant tuning required. Do you see my point here? Does anyone see my point on this aspect?
The details you mentioned are what I used, which is almost identical to the JLN setup although I had little control over current and frequency since I had no way to vary duty cycle of the input signal driving the transistor. I also did not use a bifilar wound choke, I used off the shelf variable chokes which also had limited range of changing inductance, it was a real pain. I calculated resonance based on the secondary inductance, the chokes, and the cell capacitance, but even then it took alot of tuning to find the right frequency for this cell and the calculations ended up being off by over 5Khz. I would venture to say that you could not pay me enough money to reproduce that original experiment without allowing a processor controlled scheme, it was truly a nightmare of tuning and going over and over all the calculations. It's obvious why Stan went with a different scheme in the latest patents.
Tad -
#55 · date not recorded
tad i see your point why you see it is a useless process to go thru and am well aware of all the negative issues you described but as im sure you are aware most of meyers designs were orginated from the learning curve as he experimented he came across all the issue you described plus more and then changed his designs accordingly to compensate as you are now doing but for most people who are unaware of these issue they have to start some where this is a good spot to start and work their way up from to acheive the next level of building/learning
thanks
james
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#56 · date not recorded
I sure would remember my working setup ...
I think i would have it tattooed on my back with Egyptian letters or some shit ...
Not if it was 12 years ago and not something you wanted to remember. Not if it was useless to me. And also not useful to anyone else, all these parameters change with every cell, even if they are the same size there is going to be fluctuations in water type etc. YOU CANNOT USE THE SAME PARAMETERS FOR MULTIPLE CELLS, ALL MUST BE RECALCULATED! You are not going to be running engines on this type of setup. The cell size alone to run a car would take up the trunk and passenger seats, and would quit working about every 100 miles without computer controls. Here is a picture of this type of attempt which still turned out to not be big enough for a 6 cyl vehicle:
(http://i35.tinypic.com/2vt3wk9.jpg)
(http://i36.tinypic.com/r7vvyw.jpg)
That's 150 tubes! -
#57 ·
P.S. The above tubes (150 of them) are about 2 foot tall each. These guys were going to compete in the vehicle X-Prize and have millions of dollars in backing. I was helping them try to increase output from the cell so the vehicle would run entirely on water instead of a mix of gasoline and H2.
Tad -
#58 ·
HAHAHA , thats a huge cell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe you now Unclefester . Dam that shit is huge ...
Thats like 1000$ of stainless right there
Arent you supposed to have inductive reactance bigger than capacitive reactance ?
Let me go delete the post i made @ overunity
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#59 ·
HAHAHA , thats a huge cell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe you now Unclefester . Dam that shit is huge ...
Thats like 1000$ of stainless right there
Arent you supposed to have inductive reactance bigger than capacitive reactance ?
Let me go delete the post i made @ overunity
The power supply for that unit is very large. If capacitance increases (such as this case) then inductance must be lowered or frequency must be lowered in order to keep resonance. They had over 5000 american dollars in that unit in machining costs and stainless. They found some interesting effects and used them to create a new HHO booster unit that is more efficient than any other on the market and of course uses no electrolyte = ) I am told they will be selling them beginning next year. They would probably not be happy for me posting these devices but I doubt they will be checking this forum out anyway.
Use the calc below to play with parameters in order to understand the relations between L, C, and Freq
http://www.hamradioindia.com/HRI-Calc/LCCalculator.htm
Anyway, this is some of the research going on privately regarding these devices, but most have gone to plasma units since they are cheaper, simpler and more reliable. I was paid to do the electronics and perform some of the research along these lines. However since the economy is waning the money has started to dry up and investors are less apt to throw money around now.
Tad -
#60 ·
Ok, after seeing 150 tubes in parallel with such great length i am assuming you guy's used very clean water? I have seen the effect with 6 tubes and tap water at around the resonate freq of the chokes, But by no way can i understand 150 parallel tubes with that length.
It must have been a very efficient device, and you and i both know efficiency doesn't mean dirt.
I respect the way you chose to present the truth,, But i am curious, Did you stop work on these setups and just drop it and move on with your life, Or did you take a different direction...
Br, Brian, The guy that doesn't try to get something from nothing such as stan claims, But the guy that tries to Take it to the atomic level bypassing the need for high amounts of gas as stan also claims!
This unit used steam distilled and then deionized water. Current on start up was a problem because of the massive surface area. Once it got running the current would drop down and not burn the power supply out, but it was touchy. Tap water would have burnt the power supply out very quickly because it would have wanted to pass large amounts of current through the mineral content.
I stopped work on the submerged types of cells for reasons previously stated, but I continue work on small engines with plasma reformation of water and or emulsified fuels (this is what my investor desires so I have to stick along these lines). This is for modification of gen sets of both diesel and gasoline units and uses both plasma reformation before intake and also plasma spark systems to enhance the effect further.
I look at it as either using nature, or using brute force. Nature, just as Bedini has stated will buck you and fight you the whole way, unless you go along with how nature wants us to use energy, and it is all transients. The things we learned to snub out in school because they burn electronics out are the exact things giving us energy on the cheap. This is the key to Gray, Tesla, Meyer, Bedini, Adams and others. It is the same effect seen across all devices and therein is where all of these devices are connected. Just as Tesla stated, the solution to all the worlds energy problems rely on high voltage at very short pulse duration, it is the key to obtaining all the energy we could ever need. -
#61 ·
Plasma reformation allows us to create hydrogen from any source, whether it be a hydrocarbon, or water. It uses very tiny particles of water or fuels, and since these particles are so small, the electric field can easily break them apart. Unlike a submerged cell where we have liquid in mass quantity it takes large amounts of energy to break them up compared to a plasma converting a very light particle. You see the larger the field surrounding a particle (energy density per molecule) the easier it is to break the particle up. We don't have this luxury in a submerged cell because we have a highly loaded power supply which is trying to break up a high density liquid.
I suppose a good analogy is a rock crusher. The more rocks you throw in at once, the more the engine has to work on order to break those rocks up into smaller ones. The less rocks you throw into the jaws, the less work has to be performed at one time. Plasma physics is a complex science and the equations I cannot comprehend (I am not schooled in physics nor complex mathematics) but it is easy enough to adjust the field to be strong enough to make hydrogen on demand from vapor.
This is what Stan was doing with the water injector, it took a very small amount of water and placed it into an intense, but low power field. It would create enough energy just from one droplet to force a piston in an ICE at least once, which is all we need. The lighter the particle (I.E. the better atomized) the easier it is to break it into it's constituent components (atoms) which some then recombine into the molecules they are attracted to combine with. This means we can use a fraction of the power it would normally require in a submerged electrolysis cell and create far more hydrogen on demand as it enters the intake of the engine, regardless of whether it is a turbine combustor or piston, etc.
We can easily create a fine vapor or atomized stream by ultrasonics, or heat to create steam (as Meyer did). And we can also control the flow of vapor and the voltage level and current of the field breaking the vapor. So now we have ideal conditions that are extremely simple to build versus the electronics required for a submerged cell. We can vary the vapor volume by a simple butterfly valve or needle valve so we have full control of throttle using only one simple, reliable component. It also means we have no large tank but only a small (i.e. 1/2" diameter) nozzle which the vapor flows through. If we need more volume of hydrogen we simply add more nozzles and apply the same power supply input to them and thereby multiply our fuel input on demand. The government labs are working on this at a feverish pace. LANL and others are wanting to use these techniques on fuels because they can increase mileage by 50 percent or more and reduce emissions by 90 percent. When using a water vapor along with this setup then we can improve those stats even further. On diesels we use a pump to force the vapor into the intake under pressure thereby dealing with the vacuum issues with those engines. You can also pull the vapor/hydrogen stream into the engine via the compressor on a turbo and eliminate the need for any other type of pump.
My investor is of course wanting the "holy grail" of fuels which is of course running straight distilled water into the plasma stream to drive an engine. We require TDC or later timing in piston engines because hydrogen has such a rapid flame rate it will try and force the piston down before it reaches top dead center which causes the engine to run poorly and sometimes not at all. Plasma ignition is obtained by a simple capacitive discharge ignition running in the 700 to 1000 volts DC. When the arc from the stock ignition is created the capacitor discharges it's current across the established gap and we have a large plasma ball created inside the combustion chamber, which further breaks any molecules down into hydrogen rich streams and then immediately fires the mixture. So we have a slightly higher load on the alternator, but it plays us back in power and the ability to run (mostly) water and only a tiny amount of gasoline is needed. Soon there will not be any need for fuels to get the engine running and we can pre-charge the intake with hydrogen rich gas to start and run. We are not there yet but we have only been working on this scheme for about three months and it already shows good promise.
Hope that helps,
Tad -
#62 · date not recorded
I just finished working with Bob Krupa on the firestorm plugs. This whole scheme was to make a large amount of plasma from a spark plug only. This means we need more energy since we are working with a straight hydrocarbon fuel which has not been well atomized (current day fuel injection is quite poor at atomization), so we ended up needing at least one joule of energy and our bench tests ran upwards of 3 joules to get the job done.
We found that the higher the voltage, the better plasma ball we could develop, even if we lower the capacitance, we can still get good plasma because of the voltages involved. We were using 1200 volt rated SCR's to dump the charge which worked well as long as the transients did not get out of hand and falsely trip the gate. In this case you would get a misfire, sometimes a double pulse, sometimes it would fuse the gate and destroy the SCR (this normally did not happen unless we were running tens of joules of energy at higher voltages, 1000+). I have video of some destructive tests we performed on these plugs at 100+ joules and it showed that this much energy should never be needed.
But if we are already working with a hydrogen rich stream before it enters the combustion chamber then we don't need nearly the amount of plasma from the plug we would otherwise require, since we are simply trying to break up any left over vapor that was not already processed and increase the efficiency further. A constant 10 amperes from the alternator should get the job done, or 1 ampere from the generator head if it is a stationary generator making single phase AC. The only reason to go any higher than this input is if your fuel stream has not already been processed as stated above.
One of the contenders in the vehicle X-Prize I believe is using this system. They are claiming 120 miles per gallon on a ford 5.0 litre V-8 and intend on winning the X-Prize based on this system. They also have some other unique systems for increasing mileage even further but will not divulge what they are until they have patented them after the contest has ended.
Tad -
#63 · date not recorded
The old Meyer tests were as follow. I remember well on input and output because I knew I had to be accurate.
Input to the inverter was only 1.2 amperes @ 12vdc, thus we have 14.4 watts total input. Output showed 200 LPH until the cell cooled down and had to be re-tuned. Any higher current on the input of the inverter at it would fry the primary of the step-up trans, so I had to keep input low and work with resistance on the secondary side. Worst case scenario is that the input would bounce around 12 to 15 watts max. It was easy to measure the input with a simple current shunt so it had to be accurate to probably 10 percent I would imagine.
I am not claiming anything however, I am here to help because you guys asked for help. I was giving you a background of my experiments and how they might help you in your efforts. If I was claiming results and then having to argue back and forth I would not be here, except to defend myself against Dankie's claim of fraud or deception.
I feel as though I have given you all the information that I could possibly divulge without getting me in too much trouble with the investors and people I have helped, although I have probably said a bit more than they would have wanted me to. There are thousands of private funded experiments going on all over the planet and almost all will never divulge their data. Many of these experiments do not need nor want to ask any questions because of privacy and also they usually do not need any more data other than the Meyer and other patents. A decent amount of electronics experience and lots of time in the lab are all anyone needs for duplicating the early Meyer process. If you understand Ohm's law and a little bit about electrolysis and resonance, then any of these experiments can be duplicated.
Beyond that I am no longer working on the old Meyer process for reasons previously stated and have not worked on it except to give advice in over 10 years. There are much simpler, and more productive systems to spend my time on, especially if they are funded projects. These things take time and money, and if you don't have an abundance of either then all you can do are the simple reproductions which hold no value commercially. -
#64 · date not recorded
Well, the same cell built by Stan would have been much higher output, and probably had computer controls for tuning. Output should only be limited by the voltage, surface area, and how much water can pass between the electrodes to flush out the gas. Stan told me he could break one gallon of water per minute at 10KV, which would mean tens of thousands of liters per minute if my calculations are correct. But yet again, it would be better still to use that 10KV @ microamperes of current to break a vapor.
Also remember that regardless of whether it is Orthohydrogen or Parahydrogen we need upwards of 10,000 LPH just to idle a 2 liter 4 cylinder engine, even though we can have up to a 75:1 air/fuel ratio. -
#65 ·
fester it only take me about 5 to 6 liter per minute to idle a 5.5 hp briggs that is 206 cc going from that number it should only take me 35 to 42 liters to idle my 1.4 / 1.5 liter honda civic should only be about 3000lph
http://www.youtube.com/user/dudleyengineering -
#66 · date not recorded
I see your point. I'm not sure why but somehow you can get engines to run on lesser amounts than modern science states. I've idled a 360CI V-8 on 200 lph for 30 seconds before it went to lean to run, but I don't totally understand why since it should not have even run more than 10 seconds at that output even with some pressure developed on he cell before hand.
I have to get back to work so I can feed my family over the next month or two. If there is anything else you need you can reach me at h2opowered at cox dot net, although as I stated before I have very limited time, these last few posts were a rare exception.
Tad -
#67 · date not recorded
Tesla Igniting surface of Water with High Frequency
I think this shows very crude how meyer's system will work.
finetuning it will give constant flames -
#68 · date not recorded
Tesla Igniting surface of Water with High Frequency
I think this shows very crude how meyer's system will work.
finetuning it will give constant flames
Alan,
This video is amazing! The flames are incredible. Its hydrogen!
The amount is incredible too, for just 120watts...
Do you have more info on this?
Steve
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#69 · date not recorded
Too bad no more info.
Only thing I know is high voltage, high frequency, I think HF spikes [mhz/ghz?], but LF repetition rate [khz] created by transients.
I think the same can be accomplished with a stungun, which nowadays approaches 1MV
I wonder what happens when the frequency can be fine tuned, guess meyer did exactly that: easy tunable teslacoil by altering pulse rate.
The disruptive discharge of a capacitor through a sparkgap allows such natural oscillations without pulling more power from the source when the coil is shorted, all energy is delivered by the cap.
this is what i understand from richieburnett site about teslacoils.
I know, blablabla
but this is what I think is happening.
guess the same may happen with the hairpin circuit when tuning is possible - no hho occured when a lamp on the hairpin was put into water, tuning the sparkgap by quenching may help, with 2 concetric tubes and no lamp.
the coil that is used in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU9B1YfkEqo&NR=1# -
#70 ·
Not sure what happened to the date on the last few posts, anyhow wanted to add some info.
here is a link for air to water ionization - this is related to a single lightning strike, not several discharges like the above video:
,
http://analogengineering.com/lightning/surface.html
Tad,
Your insite to steam is one I have been working towards for awhile now also, Instead of expanding water 1800x steam is already 1600x there so the expansion is only needed 200x more.
Steam:
has more energy than water,
has less chemicals,
has a lower dielectric constant,
has a lower density, etc...
All which point in favor of spliting into H and O with voltage fields.
On the automotive X deal you are working on some pointers:
1-Add a massive Ozone generator to the intake, improvements on fuel by 7 to 10%
(seen a patent on this after I done the chemistry math - patent backed my findings. Although I should say I backed the patent findings since it was first, but I didn't know that at the time).
2- If you are looking for most efficiency add exhaust heat to the intake, you will loose HP. due to air density losses, but increase the miles per gallon. (I have been thinking of having a link cable tied to the gas pedel - full throttle lets in the cold air, less throttle lets in the hot air, heat exchanger with exhaust pipe)
If you get the investers interested try going with ionized intake air instead of Ozone - not sure if that would improve more than ozone.
I have more ideas on the subject but don't want to bore you with them.
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#71 · date not recorded
Sorry to necro such an old thread. Just checking in to see how everyone was getting along with their test setups.
Tad
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