Microprocesor Based VIC/PWM Controller
Started by unknown · · 29 posts · last reply 8 July 2009
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#1 · date not recorded
It is in the works.
Tell me what you want it to do. I have my ideas but I also want yours.
So far a 4 x 20 Back lit LCD Display that can display Frequency, Current, Duty Cycle and Gating. I could go
with a graphic display, but that adds about $20 to the cost plus programming time. The graphic display would
allow display of actual waveforms.
The user controls can do whatever I program them to do. The turn knobs are rotary encoders as well
as momentary push button switches. Pushing a knob in can toggle various modes and programming options.
So tell me the features that you think will be most beneficial and practical. Don't worry I won't laugh at anyone.
Please don't ask for a USB interface for a PC because I cannot afford the time to write a Windows App.
If there is enough interest and I can keep the cost reasonable, I will consider building and selling a few of these.
Otherwise I will have the only one.
Goeytex
attachment_4289 Micro VIC Controller.jpg
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#2 · date not recorded
A way to control the voltage by external input, for example, if one of us ever put this thing in a car, it would be nice to be able to vary the voltage with the gas pedal, so you would need an input to your circuit for external control of the input voltage and/or the duty cycle and/or gating... since each can control gas production, depending on the set up. You can't really play with the dials when you are trying to drive. This might be complicated or beyond the scope of this device, but I'm just throwing it out there
If you have a sweeper and pll, then there is no use for a frequency dial, but i guess you would want dials to play with gating, duty, and input voltage from 0-12 volts.
It might be interesting if you could have a memory in it, (like an SD Card) that would log the action of the device for several aspects, like frequencies that resonance was found at, and then use this to find effective sweep ranges.
If you wanted to get extremely fancy, for the sake of throwing out ideas, if you could come across an electronic gas flow gauge and pressure gauge, and have these as inputs to your circuit, then have the readings from these gauges matched up with the voltage/duty/gate/frequency and such, and then logged in your memory stick, for analysis.
A few thoughts for now, there are lots of possibilities, I guess it just depends on how far you want to go
Do you have a rough estimate on the price range of this device? And time-frame of completion?
(graphical display would be cool) -
#3 · date not recorded
It is in the works.
Tell me what you want it to do. I have my ideas but I also want yours.
So far a 4 x 20 Back lit LCD Display that can display Frequency, Current, Duty Cycle and Gating. I could go
with a graphic display, but that adds about $20 to the cost plus programming time. The graphic display would
allow display of actual waveforms.
The user controls can do whatever I program them to do. The turn knobs are rotary encoders as well
as momentary push button switches. Pushing a knob in can toggle various modes and programming options.
So tell me the features that you think will be most beneficial and practical. Don't worry I won't laugh at anyone.
Please don't ask for a USB interface for a PC because I cannot afford the time to write a Windows App.
If there is enough interest and I can keep the cost reasonable, I will consider building and selling a few of these.
Otherwise I will have the only one.
Goeytex
Right now I am working with the attiny2313 and Nokia LCD. I have also considered the serial LCD from all electronics to be benifentual. The problem i am facing right now is there really isn't a good way to program the attiny's, We use to use the fun card programmer which was a small chip you could make in about 10 min's that only required 3 resistors and a parallel port connector. And a zif socket to release the avr. What I do not know about the attiny2313 is it must be programmed serially unless you use pony prog, and i do not like pony prog. The programming hardware alone runs about 20 bucks but you still have to have your target avr clocked externally.
This is why i've been spending time writing new user friendly software in visual basic. I don't like avr dude. I have currently been working with mscomm in vb. It does not look easy at all, its very time consuming. Perhaps i will give in and use pony prog, but i am unsure of how the fuses work. I dont want locked out because that would cost 10 bucks a mistake.
As of right now, I'm still learning how to activate the avr's internal clock to delete the use of the externall one, since the internal clock comes from the factory working if you know how to turn it on.
What microcontroller are you using, the pic? -
#4 · date not recorded
A way to control the voltage by external input, for example, if one of us ever put this thing in a car, it would be nice to be able to vary the voltage with the gas pedal, so you would need an input to your circuit for external control of the input voltage and/or the duty cycle and/or gating... since each can control gas production, depending on the set up. You can't really play with the dials when you are trying to drive. This might be complicated or beyond the scope of this device, but I'm just throwing it out there
This will be for Lab/Experimentation purposes and not intended to control a cell in a moving vehicle. A System designed for a
vehicle will be much different and would also need to include oxygen sensor compensation. Let's lean how make gas in a lab using the Meyer process before we start launching rocket ships to the moon ( or Porches down the Autobahn.)QuoteIf you have a sweeper and pll, then there is no use for a frequency dial, but i guess you would want dials to play with gating, duty, and input voltage from 0-12 volts.
I have found manual control to be quite useful for:
1. Directly pulsing a cell with no transformer. ( Collecting baseline data)
2. Testing Coil various combinations where the resonant frequency or coil performance is unknown.
3. Most experimenters are control freaks and want to be able to do manual adjustments (like dialing
in a specific frequency)QuoteIt might be interesting if you could have a memory in it, (like an SD Card) that would log the action of the device for several aspects, like frequencies that resonance was found at, and then use this to find effective sweep ranges.
Add $150 minimum for the SD card Interface.QuoteIf you wanted to get extremely fancy, for the sake of throwing out ideas, if you could come across an electronic gas flow gauge and pressure gauge, and have these as inputs to your circuit, then have the readings from these gauges matched up with the voltage/duty/gate/frequency and such, and then logged in your memory stick, for analysis.
An A/D input can be reserved for gas pressure and flow transducers. Industry Standard Instrumentation specs for these devices is 4 -20 ma output full range. Drop this across a 250 ohm resistor and you have a 1 - 5 volt input that can be fed to a multiplexed A/D input. We probably only need to sample these inputs 10 times per second or maybe even less. That would only take a few extra components and a few lines of code. The gas pressure sensor could trigger a fault condition ( too high) or control the gating and/or voltage level
to the cell.QuoteDo you have a rough estimate on the price range of this device? And time-frame of completion?
At least 3 weeks to get a breadboard prototype up and running. Have no clue on the cost. It probably won't be cheap. How much are
you willing to pay ?
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#5 · date not recorded
QuoteWhat microcontroller are you using, the pic?
Good question.
I have not selected the micro yet. It be be selected based upon how many I/O's and ADC's
we will need need, and how well the micro can handle the multiple PWM outputs at 40 - 50Khz.
Also I want to select a micro that that has room for expansion (extra I/Os, ADC's, comparators, etc
so I don't have to spin a new board when something is changed or upgraded. Ideally we will design
it so that one basic board can be used for several different applications depending upon the code and
user interface.
I have development systems for PIC Atmel, and ST. So it will be one of these. -
#6 ·
Lol
This person is copying everything I do . Dont you have a job that pays good money already ?
I have it all built already , you can do WHATEVER YOU EVER WANTED TO DO , updating my pcb now , Im waiting for my friends video cam .
Tomorro or after that , theres these holidays here now .
Oh really ?
I can assure you that I have not even looked at anything you have posted in regards to circuits. But now that I have looked, I don't see where you have ever posted an original circuit..... Have you ?
What microprocessor are you using? How many ADC's ? Are the PWM's internal to the processor or are you generating them with interrupt routines? What clock speed does your processor run. If you come up with a firmware upgrade to improve functionality or add features will you do a processor chip exchange ?
Let's see some drawings or photos of the user interface and display. Is yours a graphic or character display? Does your system have a built in self-test and diagnostics routine ?
Certainly, if you have already perfected the ultimate Microprocessor VIC Controller that cannot possibly be improved, then the rest of us should just stop what we are doing and wait for you.
Heck, I'm thinking about killing myself now. All this wasted effort you know ......
Sorry folks, all plans are canceled! I'm getting a rope !
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#7 ·
Lol
This person is copying everything I do . Dont you have a job that pays good money already ?
I have it all built already , you can do WHATEVER YOU EVER WANTED TO DO , updating my pcb now , Im waiting for my friends video cam .
Tomorro or after that , theres these holidays here now .
Oh really ?
I can assure you that I have not even looked at anything you have posted in regards to circuits. But now that I have looked, I don't see where you have ever posted an original circuit..... Have you ?
What microprocessor are you using? How many ADC's ? Are the PWM's internal to the processor or are you generating them with interrupt routines? What clock speed does your processor run. If you come up with a firmware upgrade to improve functionality or add features will you do a processor chip exchange ?
Let's see some drawings or photos of the user interface and display. Is yours a graphic or character display? Does your system have a built in self-test and diagnostics routine ?
Certainly, if you have already perfected the ultimate Microprocessor VIC Controller that cannot possibly be improved, then the rest of us should just stop what we are doing and wait for you.
Heck, I'm thinking about killing myself now. All this wasted effort you know ......
Sorry folks, all plans are canceled! I'm getting a rope !
Its as good as it gets for manual pulsing .
All these improvements are pointless untill we get gas , my product will have what it takes to make it work , thats IF it can work ...
Theres no market for this anyways , FE might be important but ppl are just TOO POOR . I am HEAVILY DISSAPOINTED BY THE SALES SO FAR .
You are the engineer who makes big $ , I am the bum with no job .
I made this circuit WITH A PASSION , you are making your to go into competion with me .
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#8 ·
Geoytex,
I just have one thing to say... WOW, now that is a nice PWM circuit.
I'm sorry Dankie, but I have seen some of Goeytex work, and he sure knows what he is doing, don't get me wrong, your circuit is pretty good for someone that never did one before, I do give you credit for that, but it does not compare with Goeytex knowledge.
And Competition is allways good for the consumer.
Jolt -
#9 ·
Geoytex, I have one suggestion if you build such a nice PWM micro controlled.
We are not seeing any positive side pulsing.
Will this work on the positive line?
Work that into the outputs.
I know you don't care for the positive side, but thats more control. More variables!
You can do it.
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#10 ·
Mr. Dankie,
I think you may be suffering from unjustified paranoia. Take a deep breath and relax.
As I said in another post, I will only consider building something like this to sell if there is enough interest.
I am building the prototype for my own use in research and experimentation. If it works out that someone wants and can
afford a system like this, then I will consider building a few more. Otherwise I will keep it to myself and possibly share
the design in the Public Domain.
If I truly wanted to compete with you I would design a simple manual dual output PWM board around a 79 cent 8 bit microprocessor,
program it to do whatever yours does (and more), have it assembled in China, and then and sell it for $79 (and actually make money) . But that is not what I am after. I have little interest in the money.
But be assured that I am not going to stop what I am doing because you are afraid it my cost you some sales. What I am doing is not
going to hurt your sales.
So relax . You have nothing to be afraid of here. -
#11 ·
Geoytex, I have one suggestion if you build such a nice PWM micro controlled.
We are not seeing any positive side pulsing.
Will this work on the positive line?
Work that into the outputs.
I know you don't care for the positive side, but thats more control. More variables!
You can do it.
Did Meyer pulse the positive side? I don't think so. I went over the WO patent schematic in detail and saw where the positive side voltage amplitude was controlled by a feedback circuit , but that was not actual pulsing of the positive side. It was more like a voltage regulator that adjusted voltage based upon engine demand and/or gas pressure.
Now if there is evidence based upon someones research and experimentation that positive side pulsing is beneficial, I would certainly be interested in seeing that data. Certainly the positive side "could" be pulsed ... kind of like a synchronous buck cell. Not a problem for a micro based system. The timing would just have to be correct.
Edit: Let me clarify a bit. I recently had a discussion with a nice gentleman working on this stuff and he was of the opinion that the circuit in the WO patent was pulsing both the high and low sides simultaneously. I went over the circuit with him component by component to show that it was not. Only the low side was actually switched. This is what I initially thought you were referring to... simultaneous switching of both sides. I see that it is not what you meant .
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#12 ·
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#13 ·
QuoteDid Meyer pulse the positive side? I don't think so. I went over the WO patent schematic in detail and saw where the positive side voltage amplitude was controlled by a feedback circuit , but that was not actual pulsing of the positive side. It was more like a voltage regulator that adjusted voltage based upon engine demand and/or gas pressure.
Now if there is evidence based upon someones research and experimentation that positive side pulsing is beneficial, I would certainly be interested in seeing that data. Certainly the positive side "could" be pulsed ... kind of like a synchronous buck cell. Not a problem for a micro based system. The timing would just have to be correct.
from what i understand is stan was controlling a analog signal on the positive side.. it allowed analog pulse to be produced on the duty cycle gate and he had a digital signal on negative side of the transformer.. it has the matching duty as the analog but is a digital signal variable from 0-20khz.. these are my understanding from reading his notes on the cell driver circuit and the variable amplitude ... them two, the analog and digital working across the transformer in sync create signal 49axxx49n.. to my best of understanding.. i think you would use the duty cycle gate to send to gass processor and valve gatting as well, and have the logic needed to put them in sync by whatever means.. i also beleive stan had one of his choke electricaly linked to the negative side by the digital gate.. i think thats how he could transfer a clean signal into the cell. by gating it to ground and it would super impose onto primary?
just throwing that out there.. i think positive choke is just linked to copper secondary through the diode.
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#14 ·
Positive side pulsing.
Fig 8B patent 5149407 shows pulsing positive in 2 places.
Figure 8B of 5149407 shows a bipolar transistor used as a "high side switch". Both switches are high side switches in this
drawing. Same thing in 4798661. Meyer uses low side switching other circuits. I could be wrong, but I'm not not sure that the load cares too much as to which side is switched. Each causes current to flow when closed and current to stop when open. Spice models show no difference in the final waveforms using either technique. However there may be some advantages in using a high side switch. But that is probably something for discussion in another thread.
In any case, the PWM output of a microprocessor based system can turn on or off a high side bipolar transistor just as well as it can a low side FET.
QuoteI think your basing your data on old Meyer patents.
Newer stuff shows positive pulsing.
The patents you referred to were applied for in 1985 and 1989 and show high side switching for their respective applications. These were block diagrams and not actual circuits
WO9207861 applied for 1990 (Later) shows low side switching in figure 5 for a particular application. In this patent the low side switch is shown in a more detailed ans specific circuit. Yet in Figure 10 of the same patent he shows a boiler plate VIC using a high side switching.
My take is that the date of the patent is irrelevant. Newer does not necessarily mean better. The boiler plate VIC drawings are meant to show that the coil is pulsed and not necessarily that it must be with a high side switch. Again, I don't think the transformer primary cares with side the switch is on. It only cares when and how often the current is allowed to flow.
Goey -
#15 ·
@Goeytex
I need a simple solution to regulate the amplitude of the pulsed/gated signal that has to be controlled with a micro processor.
More external hardware is necessary I think. I can only regulate the amplitude with the FET driver (external power supply +- 15volts ) Input PWM signal of the driver is 3.3 volts.
(I want output to be regulated, that my FET can work as a pulsing resistor)
I have tested my setup with two PWM signals that i can regulate with a windows dot.NET application. Micro processor is connected via USB.
br
Webmug
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#16 · date not recorded
Positive side pulsing.
Again, I don't think the transformer primary cares with side the switch is on. It only cares when and how often the current is allowed to flow.
Goey
I agree with Goey
A coil generates the exact same signal regarless if pulsed using negative or positive switching. Now using both can be an option for gating... but since we can do that using one single switching circuit, I don't see the need for it.
by the way, the PCB for the satble gated 3 channel PWM does have a section to add the positive switching by adding a power PNP or P-Channel FET. -
#17 · date not recorded
tell me if this sound like it could be correct.. stan says this is a physical process, so this means the building of voltage potentials (steady amplifying voltage pulse frequency) in the cell plates is whats giving you the force to drum on the protons an electrons with potential. it is a non chemical reaction with water so there are no trades of electrons from the plates into the water or vice versa. so the only way the water is going to be effected to elongate the orbital electrons is with a change in potentials in the plates (gaining and dropping in amplitude on a frequency)..
so lets say it gets charged up to 40kv.. once it reaches 40 kv where is it being discharged? into the water? to be a physical process are you aloud to leak electrons into the water? but if you were leaking electrons from negative into the water would you not pull electrons from water into the positive making it a chemical reaction? or does positive balance back out with the diode colapsing as the negative choke potential drops?
could stan be turning on analog and digital on seperate sides of the primary to charge and then he discharges the choke on a frequency through the negative digital gate as well??? plus when your allowing a solid analog to be produced on the positive and the digital on the negative, doesnt that leave you with the primary receiving a inclining pos on time even when the digital is being gated off?? would that create any effects on the core? maybe frequency multiply? im not sure if i even make sense..
i see stan charging and discharging through the transformer since he says it a physical process.. and it would make sense to pulse your dischage, but to do so you have to have analog on one side and digital on the other... i read somewhere that neg choke superimposes onto primary..?? sorry if it seems like i repeated myself like 3 times i just wanted to cycle it through your brains from different perspectives..or am i seeing this all wrong? please correct me in redneck lingo lol.. and sorry if you feel like im going off topic on your thread.. i have study stans stuff for over a year and this subject confuses and bothers me on a daily bases.. also where stan states the primary is longitudinaly wound in space relationship on the core of 6-1.. that also bothers me lol... -
#18 ·
@Outlaw
I have seen nothing with reference to vacuum tubes or the like....the only analog device Stan ever referenced was his special magneto.
As for "physical"...you can take it in many interpretations...it's all covered under the realm of Physics...so I believe he is making reference to the pulsating voltage potential elongating and "fracturing" water.Quoteso there are no trades of electrons from the plates into the water or vice versa
This is an erroneous statement...
His patent clearly lays out an "ELECTRON EXTRACTION CIRCUIT" (EEC...)
It's quite clear there is electron manipulation...this is likely why he was found guilty in court of Fraud...they couldn't fathom the electron retaining potential and "motoring itself" into another load....this is the "relaxation time" (length of time a molecule/atom retains charge)....and is the basis of OU....it's the basis of everything Tom Beardon, John Bedini, and Joe Newman try and teach....KEEPING INPUT AND OUT ISOLATED!
By keeping the Charge/Discharge separated in COMPLETELY separate circuits you allow charge movement without extra load on the input side. You are also left with charged atoms afterward because it is not an already separated ion traveling to the opposite charged electrode to neutralize (electrolysis)...in fact it's stored potential energy drained off the collector/condenser/capacitor (wfc)
This is not myth...this is not theory....this is cold hard Physics!!!
The demo cell is most likely a highly efficient pulsed resonant electrolysis cell....to make it run a car IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING!!!!................It is clear that the hydrogen is manipulated....CLEAR!!! Stan says it everywhere...."ATOMIC DECAY OF HYDROGEN"....straight from his mouth........It seems like an attempt to describe the compressing nature of ATOMIC Hydrogen atoms condensing to Hydrogen Molecules....I don't know what I need to do to get people to see the connection!!!!
Shooot....connection is a bad word....IT'S A GIANT BRIDGE
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#19 · date not recorded
QuoteI don't know what I need to do to get people to see the connection!!!!
Maybe build a working system ? -
#20 · date not recorded
Don't forget to look at the specs of the fets or transistors regarding [rise]times, you want fast risetimes, "sharp gradients" remember, the sharper, the bigger the emf induced on the coils. Must be s maller than the risetime constant of the primary coil.
the mosfet at the positive or negative side of the primary coil?
put it on the negative side, and see if voltage has reached the collector in off state.
a coil is a wire and transmits voltage to the other terminal, being connected or not connected.
put 5 volt on one side of a coil and measure on the other unconnected side, you'll read 5 volt, or 0v over the coil. [it is quite interesting if it does so]
also, try 2 fets on both sides and alternating: shuttling of voltage potential a la tesla?
I think.
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#21 · date not recorded
QuoteI don't know what I need to do to get people to see the connection!!!!
Maybe build a working system ?
Well no sh*t Sherlock!
I've been doing so...I'm waiting on my damn VIC (I also need electrodes welded to all my tube sets...19 tube sets)....my point is there are people with more resources then myself, and, if they were in the right direction (instead of "La La Land") then something would happen NOW!
So please save your condescending remarks...I haven't the time. -
#22 · date not recorded
Didn't mean to be condescending really.
But there seems to be quite a few people in regards to this stuff that are dead sure that they have the answer,
yet they really only have an untested theory or idea. And in light of the fact that they have not proven their theory
in practice, they preach it like it is the irrefutable gospel truth, while wondering why others don't
jump on their bandwagon and become glassy -eyed converts.
But I am sure that you are not one of these people. Are you ?
Too many people have declared they have the answers to this stuff prior to ever having done squat . They are sure they
on on the right path and anyone on a different path is missing it. So you should understand that those us of that have
built multiple systems and spent countless hours and blown dozens of FET's on this stuff trying almost every conceivable way
of replicating Meyers process .....might be a bit skeptical of untested theories.
As far as comments go, I will comment whenever I see fit, especially on a thread that I started. And I will
try not to be condescending to anyone.
Again, my comment was not intended to be condescending, but rather to make a point.
I wish you great success in your endeavor. -
#23 · date not recorded
@Goeytex
your a ok in my book.. as well as everyone else on here.. anyone who has taken the time to question the illusion that luminates in front of their eyes on a daily basis is ok in my book.. i have learned through the last year of studying that you never know when your gonna stumble across a answer to a ponderd thought.. it can come from the most unlikely places. any who back to the subject at hand.
@ radiant_1
i understand the whole process you are speaking of.. i understand stan states hes producing power from waters electrons on the off time and at the same time restricting current due to the led resistance and he is converting the electron energy to photon energy. this is understood on my parts.. but i dont see a E.E.C being involved but only in what stan calls the hydrogen fracturing process.... that involes a dry cell resonant cavity... being pulsed at high amplitude to excite Oxygens electrons off in the already processed water (gas) it would be linked to a extraction circuit (led arrays hooked to a tube/ or screen right above the exit port of the dry cell). you will not tune into hydrogens high freq of electron orbits and be able to remove its electron.. you must rob most of the oxygens and the oxy will rob the hydrogen of its electron. you have now created very unstable hydrogen.. it is a atomized proton looking for balance with none to be found. this gas mix alone has a static charge and must be insulated from being grounded out i would say.. i think it regains its electrons through the motor apon entrance and exposure to ignition... heat equals energy loss in a material, does that mean when a cylinder is hot it can easily pass and receive electrons from a ionized gas? also remember non combistables are being introduced to the mix too.. they will allow protons to cling to them and you find yourself with hydrocarbon..
and the retardation of ignition due to the time it takes from hydrogen to pull away from the carbon and cling to the oxygen during ignition.. we can now match the burning rate of fossil fuel.. so what it amounts to is how we ring these little booggers. to produce cold hard physics effects.... these are not ideas from me these are understandings by stan for the most part.. explained on videos and his tech..
not saying im completely right on the concept and i could be mistaken.. but i beleive im darn close..
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#24 · date not recorded
To rotate the polarity field of our WFC I think we can use a modified motor H-bridge circuit.
Two input lines, one input line A... current flow -/+, then input line B...current flow +/-. Both A and B no current flow to WFC off.
Use the power generated from the alternator instead of 12Volt supply to switch it through the WFC. As a result I think we do not have brown mug.
Don't know the specs yet to build one with IC's or discrete components. Still investigating this.
br
Webmug
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#25 · date not recorded
I have been told that the "brown mug" can be prevented in a flat plate electrolysis cell by putting a porous membrane between the plates so that the two gasses cannot combine in the water. The holes in the membrane are small enough to let water through but not the bubbles.
Something like nylon mesh was suggested. Of course this would not be practical in a Meyer tube type cell, but if true might suggest what the brown stuff could be ( a byproduct of oxygen and hygrogen gasses mixing in relatively impure water loaded with all kinds of nasty crap) .
I have heard quite a few theories as to what it the brown stuff is, but unless these can be substantiated with a actual chemical analysis of the stuff... they remain only theories to me. I certainly would not claim to know without a chemical analysis.