Maybe using both hho and water......
Started by unknown · · 16 posts · last reply 1 August 2011
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#1 · date not recorded
What if we use a little bit of HHO in an engine to heat up a drop of water, which expands in volume and so run an engine?
The amount of HHO needed is much less, then if you ran it fully on HHO.
Just a plasma sparkplug, a bit of HHO for getting a high temp rockets boost flame to heat up a waterdrop.....
Here some more theory on this:
A significant feature of the vaporization phase change of water is the large change in volume that accompanies it. A mole of water is 18 grams, and at STP that mole would occupy 22.4 liters if vaporized into a gas. If the change is from water to steam at 100°C, rather than 0°C, then by the ideal gas law that volume is increased by the ratio of the absolute temperatures, 373K/273K, to 30.6 liters. Comparing that to the volume of the liquid water, the volume expands by a factor of 30600/18 = 1700 when vaporized into steam at 100°C. This is a physical fact that firefighters know, because the 1700-fold increase in volume when water is sprayed on a fire or hot surface can be explosive and dangerous.
One way to visualize this large volume change is to note the volume of 18 ml of water in a graduated cylinder as the volume occupied by Avogadro's number of water molecules in the liquid state. If converted into steam at 100°C this same mole of water molecules would fill a balloon 38.8 cm in diameter (15.3 inches).
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So, maybe the injector of Meyer was indead a waterinjector/sparkplug.
By adding a bit of HHO on the air intake, he had the HHO needed to vapourize the waterdrop...
Steve
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#2 ·
There is very little thermal energy(heat) output from the combustion of HHO in it's normal ground state. Hence the need to positively ionize the gasses, not only to control the volatility of the mixture, but to increase the thermal output of the combustion. And there are other factors such as HHO needing to be an almost perfect 2:1 ratio for combustion to occur. I believe Stan figured this all out through his works and came to the final conclusion that in order to ensure no misfires or mishaps, he would have to design an injector that would do all of the needed processes and reactions to happen in the injector and cylinder. 1st, inject a mixture of water, positively ionized air, and exhaust through the high voltage zones of the injector into the cylinder, 2nd, compress the mixture in the cylinder with the upstroke of the piston, and 3rd, detonate the compressed mixture at the optimal time of the cycle. Any water not split in the reaction will definitely result in added torque from the water flashing to steam. -
#3 ·
Hi Bubz,
Maybe its even more simple then we think.
If you have a HHO flame and put it against metal, then you will notice a very high temperature.
So high, that even Steel turns into liquid in no time.
So, the reaction in and around a sparkplug would be similar, i suppose....
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#4 · date not recorded
Hi Steve!
Very good point! Although, the water itself will prevent that from happening. For example, a pot of water can be heated with temperatures high enough to melt the pot, but the pot will not melt until all the water has boiled way. If you have ever had the luxury of owning a vehicle with an aluminum head and have had a sudden loss of coolant from something like a radiator hose rupture, you will find very quickly that the aluminum will warp when the vehicle is allowed to run without any coolant. Water has a lower boiling point than aluminum, and aluminum has a lower boiling point than steel. Point being, heat will remain at the level of the lowest boiling point of used materials until that material has boiled or burned away, then climb to the next level of the remaining materials in succession with the respective boiling points.
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#5 · date not recorded
Good point, Bubz.
But might there be an turning point on that?
Meaning that if you have soo much metal and just a tiny drop of water, this law doesnt apply fully anymore?
Steve -
#6 ·
It's a conundrum to me. I split the water, then mix the HHO with water vapor or mist, then burn the gasses back into water, while the heat generated from that burn is absorbed by the "already mixed in" water vapor/mist and expands rapidly by flashing to steam? Finally, it is assumed there will be enough energy to effectively run a certain type of motor/engine? Is that the gist of it? I suppose anything is possible, and I won't know till I try it. Something about it just doesn't seem right.
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#7 ·
it is assumed there will be enough energy to effectively run a certain type of motor/engine? Is that the gist of it?
I believe the point of the added water is to turn some of the energy converted to heat during the detonation of the gas into pressure. This is not as far fetched. In WWII this idea was used extensively to conserve fuel. -
#8 · date not recorded
I am not saying it can't be done, it may be doing it already for all I know. It's just weird to think of heating water with something that turns into water. The opposite would be akin to, fighting fire with fire... -
#9 ·
I am not saying it can't be done, it may be doing it already for all I know. It's just weird to think of heating water with something that turns into water. The opposite would be akin to, fighting fire with fire...
Hi Bubz, not to be condescending to you as I respect your work that you do here and your opinion on things I find to be well thought out a lot of the time! but fighting fire with fire is a valid tactic, I believe its called over burn, where you force a fire to use all of its fuel up quickly so that it burns out faster.
I understand what you saying though! I don't think its the process of the water reforming of the gas but more the molecular friction that causes the heat which is absorbed by the water
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#10 · date not recorded
Molecular friction? Please reference an example of water being heated by molecular friction. Heated enough to cause the water to flash to steam... -
#11 · date not recorded
Molecular friction? Microwave. You can "overheat" water in a microwave so it will instantly turn into steam without starting to boil first.
You could increase the power of the engine by injection water mist into the intake air. As CrazyEwok said, it had been done during WW2. Due to the expansion the engine gets some extra torque.
When injection HHO into the combustion engine it can cause backfire because of the hot inside. A way to reduce the heat would be to add some water mist but it will also increase corrosion unless the surface of piston, valves etc. are made out of ceramic. So binding the hydrogen in some kind of fuel would be a good idea since it will eliminate timing problems because of slower combustion and would reduce the heat. But using carbon compound it will lead us to the problems we got today and that fuel would have to be made in advance. Hydrogen alone could be made "on the road". So sticking with the HHO as fuel leaves the problem of water in the engine, increasing corrosion. Someone here in this forum mentioned an additive for the oil to reduce the water.
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#12 ·
Hi Guys,
yes please do use 3% powerup NNL690 additive to engine oil, 1%? to power steer and auto fluid and do add .5ml per liter of gasoline for UPPER cylinder lubrication, the key words being, boundary lubrication.
To demonstrate the value of this, obtain some powerup, mix it with oil and see what happens, its much different that observed with untreated oil from my observations, imho, thus boundary lubrication is kept and that is important, look after your investment.
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#13 · date not recorded
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29QuoteIn internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is spraying water into the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture to cool the combustion chambers of the engine, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger, turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications. Increasing the octane rating allows for a higher compression ratio which increases the power output and efficiency of the engine. Depending on the engine, improvements in power and fuel efficiency can also be obtained solely by injecting water.[1] Water injection may also be used to reduce NOx or carbon monoxide emissions.
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#14 ·
By quoting that bubz are you trying to use it as an arguement for how does it help in this instance? or are you confirming what was being said on how it works?
Pretty much the idea is using the heat produced (however it is produced) to increase the amount of usable pressure from x amount of HHO. Now i am sure Steve will confirm that when he ran is motorcycle on his electrolysis cell the engine still warmed up. Utilizing this heat to convert more power to the engine would mean less fuel (gas production) is required.
Thats the theory from what i understand.
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#15 ·
The fuel savings is not a result of using water, it's the other way around. The water is used to cool the combustion zones instead of liquid gasoline. Liquid gasoline does not burn! I did the quote as to shine a little light on the subject and possibly steer the conversation back to the original question, instead of veering off into molecular friction, microwaves, and what not.
Without water injection or some other means to cool, using gasoline vapors to run a motor/engine will result in overheating. Using HHO, which is in vapor form, does not require cooling. Why?
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#16 · date not recorded
My finds with the motorbike engine was that the engine became less warm on HHO then on petrol.
Not sure why.
Maybe the water is cooling it. I did notice some water dripping out my exhaust at the time.
Never seen any petrol coming out.....
Steve
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