Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Started by unknown · · 48 posts · last reply 1 September 2015
-
#1 · date not recorded
Hi
Ive seen chemical reaction explained with sodium hydroxide where sodium molecule rips H+ from water molecule leaving OH- etc
but what is happening at the + and - plates when there is no electrolyte only water ?
Yull Brown and George Wiseman get monatomic and diatomic gases so theres another reaction there also ... BUT they use electrolyte
If Stan Meyer was generating gas , was it monatomic or diatomic or both and what was the reaction at the plates ?
If electrons were stripped from the water molecule, then thats high current flow into a conductor , theres only 2 plates .
H2O <> H + OH ? ..... or H2 + 2OH ?
there has to be exchange some where , the water molecule has to have a reason to let go a part of itself
1. Input = water
2. process = ANY invention utilised , either electrolysis or NON electrolysis ,HV ,LV , hf , Lf , AC , DC ,chem reaction ....etc
3. out put = gas , either monatomic or diatomic
in order to get from 1 to 3 there is a process . voltage , current and frequency dont explain it , there has to be a reason for water to turn to a gas , it has to give up its bond as a reaction to an action . If an electron is released then thats current flow
self iniozation is similar example to what Im asking , except theres TWO conductive plates in a cell .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
-
#2 · date not recorded
Meyer had different theories at various times. In one patent he said electrons revert to the H and all product gasses remain neutral. Another time he said electrons migrate to the positive electrode. If this is the true case, that's why there's a pause between the voltage pulses. During this pause, electrons go to the plate and neutralize it's charge. This happens faster than the potential build up from each single pulse. This does not produce a current in the external circuit.
It's hard to know what the product gasses actually are, without spectroscopic analysis. For all we know, CO2 may be playing a role, possibly even forming a synthetic compound together with the H.attachment_14349 Step Charging.jpg
-
#3 · date not recorded
even if there was no extracted current , the capacitor/cell has one pos+ plate and 1 neg - plate with excess electrons, so the coulomb charge of x amount of free ectrons from the water would have to equal 1/2 in order to equalize the plates when pulse is off.
but then the neg- plate would have to dump 1/2 its electrons into the water
but then equalization by itself is discharge/short
if it were a case of electrons in exchange for H and O atoms it would be avogardo numbers and be monatomic
I just looked up...
"dissociation is a process by which a molecule separates into ions ,it may also be called ionization"
"the ability to conduct electricity is based on the ionic make up of a substance"
"the more ions a substance contains the better it will conduct"
at the moment Im looking into sodium hydroxide chem reaction and gonna REMOVE the sodium from equation and consider hydronium in the self ionization theory
they say there is small x amount of deuterium naturally in water , maybe parts of water can be catalyst idk lol
-
#4 · date not recorded
Meyer vic is meant to restrict the current to keep it straight physical reaction.. the exchange happens all inside the resonant cavity... nothing get ionized.. in my view the molecules simply stop to attract each other when very charged... so hydrogen electrons jump out of oxygen orbit.. you see? no ionization at all... for the electrical polarization process... there are no missing or extra electrons... yet... you only get that point with the resonant compounding action when the out coming gas is striped of electrons which by collision upon other molecules there split them by collision (maybe is not the right name i can't remember now the correct terminology) something like electron detachment ... ) substituting one electron of the molecule ejecting one hydrogen atom and leaving the molecule (charged) unstable so the next rising electric fields cycle got to break it.. with the electron extraction circuit than you get a net charge so molecules come out with electrical charge...like wise a current flowing in a wire the gas flowing in a tube would generate a magnetic field... since is net charged..
i learned all this in an optative course in the university at the center for nuclear research course called chemistry of radiations...
you have than monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen that subsequently forms diatomic molecules liberating heat and coming out as a bubble...
sodium hydroxide is not able to electro plate to the electrode so it ionize another molecule and stay in the reaction..
the point is how to charge the water molecules? till the point where this happens?
-
#5 ·
Natural water - not distilled or de ionized - contains a variety of ions. There's even some amount of H2O2, or peroxide ions. However, these ions don't have a 'vapor pressure' in the sence that removing them causes more to appear, maintaining some kind of balance. The pressence of these ions is statistical; a certain amount of ions will be present after a certain, long enough, period of time. Formation of spontaneous ions is not the key to Meyer's system. He claimed that incrementally moving the electrons away from the valance band regions requires less energy than a normal process. And I tend to agree with him. This is the basis of his system's heightened efficiency, at the water spliting stage. I read about one test using pulses at 1.1 MHz which resulted in 96 percent less energy requirement.
"you have than monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen that subsequently forms diatomic molecules liberating heat and coming out as a bubble... " "the point is how to charge the water molecules? till the point where this happens?"
Stan said that the water molecules act as "micro capacitors" in the circuit. As the surrounding plates are charged, this places a charge on the micro capacitors. This is a non electron charge, which is related to pure potential. Pure potential is produced by radiant energy coming from a pulsating static charge. Or by a complex field which equates to static energy. A positive potential is an absence of electrons. -
#6 · date not recorded
Natural water - not distilled or de ionized - contains a variety of ions. There's even some amount of H2O2, or peroxide ions. However, these ions don't have a 'vapor pressure' in the sence that removing them causes more to appear, maintaining some kind of balance. The pressence of these ions is statistical; a certain amount of ions will be present after a certain, long enough, period of time. Formation of spontaneous ions is not the key to Meyer's system. He claimed that incrementally moving the electrons away from the valance band regions requires less energy than a normal process. And I tend to agree with him. This is the basis of his system's heightened efficiency, at the water spliting stage. I read about one test using pulses at 1.1 MHz which resulted in 96 percent less energy requirement.
"you have than monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen that subsequently forms diatomic molecules liberating heat and coming out as a bubble... " "the point is how to charge the water molecules? till the point where this happens?"
Stan said that the water molecules act as "micro capacitors" in the circuit. As the surrounding plates are charged, this places a charge on the micro capacitors. This is a non electron charge, which is related to pure potential. Pure potential is produced by radiant energy coming from a pulsating static charge. Or by a complex field which equates to static energy. A positive potential is an absence of electrons.
Meyer actually talks about using voltage as potential energy allowing efficiency at least over 10000% from the magnitude of his claims... this mean not a more efficient process, this mean 180 degree from that...its straight energy amplification... or if you will extraction from the voltage potential...
i don't want to confuse you.. sorry..
i believe this is achieve thru a process of applying voltage fields to the water.. restricting the current to the milliampere range..
this way according to stan water molecules gets a charged and subsequently in the process the covalent attraction force is switched off...
he asks how much energy does it take to turn off a switch?
how much energy is it required for an electron to just jump a band gap?
-
#7 · date not recorded
The beauty of Meyer's system is that it takes very little energy to turn off the switch.
Covanent bonds are maintained through an exchange of virtual photons, as shown by the Nobel Prize winning Feynman diagram. Shielding the covalent bond requires a higher order energy than is involved with maintaining the bond. A photon has two components, so the shielding field must have at least four components. Whittaker's equations show that a static potential can be decomposed, mathematically, into two bidirectional waves, at least one of which contains a harmonic. Static is a higher order energy than a normal photon.
Once a molecule is elongated enough to allow a static potential to penetrate the molecule, the presence of that higher order energy, in the form of static potential, will instantly switch off the bond. No ionization is required for this to happen, and any ionization which does occur will be coincidental. -
#8 · date not recorded
besides any process water goes through , water still has the natural property to self ionize itself
2 H20 <> OH- + H3O+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
so either an applied process over rides this natural property OR
self ionization is an integral part of the applied process OR
the process is the natural property Amplified
working with nature instead of against , just a thought
-
#9 ·
besides any process water goes through , water still has the natural property to self ionize itself
2 H20 <> OH- + H3O+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
so either an applied process over rides this natural property OR
self ionization is an integral part of the applied process OR
the process is the natural property Amplified
working with nature instead of against , just a thought
I think you are right as that is why Meyer's technology doesn't take up large amounts of current to break the bonds of the water molecules as it is doing something the water molecules have a tendency to do all by themselves. Ionization is the key we just had to start asking the right questions.
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/2015-07-27_182645_zpshlpc68n3.png)
Here we can see that a very localized field can break the bonds of the Hydroxide ion as it is a single bond and fairly weak. The VIC transformer places a very localized field on the water molecules that are in between the voltages zones. Now if we take this a step further as I have shown in this drawing:
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/TheElectricalPolarizationProcess-1.png)
We can see that the exciter array is pulling the water molecules apart in very much the same way as when the water molecules do randomly all by themselves so I think it's safe to say the process is in fact dealing with IONIZATION as it all makes a lot of sense when looking at the properties of water and comparing it to Meyer's technology.
Shalom,
TGS
-
#10 · date not recorded
Hello, why in your analysis the point of great potential diference is in the middle of the electrodes?
in your theory the gas is generated right in middle of the cell TGS?
in my point of view correct me please if i'm wrong... the cell has the greater intensity field right over the surface of the inner electrode.. and it decays over distance because of screening of charge and polarization effects...
so how can be the center of the cell the point with greater potential difference?
according to physics parallel plates have linear electric field strength distribution while concentric case has stronger near the smaller electrode...
thanks
ps... in attachment my "differential" wave forms ... across cell... pulse in.... Va ... Vb...
attachment_14353 sebosfato waveform.jpg
-
#11 · date not recorded
Hello, why in your analysis the point of great potential diference is in the middle of the electrodes?
in your theory the gas is generated right in middle of the cell TGS?
in my point of view correct me please if i'm wrong... the cell has the greater intensity field right over the surface of the inner electrode.. and it decays over distance because of screening of charge and polarization effects...
so how can be the center of the cell the point with greater potential difference?
according to physics parallel plates have linear electric field strength distribution while concentric case has stronger near the smaller electrode...
thanks
ps... in attachment my "differential" wave forms ... across cell... pulse in.... Va ... Vb...
It's because water is being used as a dielectric material. Many working on this technology have noticed that there is gas being generated right in the center of the high voltage potential zones. When you add these experimental observations to Meyer's words telling us each water molecules acts like a tiny capacitor then right in the center of the cell will be the greatest plain of potential difference as each little water molecule capacitor will carry the voltage over to the next water molecule as remember they are all in a straight line between the electrodes.
The drawing is based on my observations of the many experiments I have performed and helped me reason out just how the process was taking place between the cells on a molecular level with IONIZATION in mind as after all water, no mater how pure, will do this all on it's own naturally. The drawing is only an illustration designed to further my knowledge on the inner workings of this technology and could be incorrect.
Other things to note is this assumes the B+ and B- voltages are equal for if they are not equal then that center will move to the side with the greatest voltage. This is why when people only have a positive voltage shown on the scope the water will heat up as they will be pushing amps through the water bath for the magnetic current quenching effect of the opposed chokes wont be balanced. -
#12 · date not recorded
its nice to see how you look at it. Like i told you, i see it in a different way... but that should not stop you..
do you know that the ions are equally distributed thru the volume?
another question? is that point in the middle of your "cell" the zero volts? i mean you are considering to be applying B+ and B- at same time?
keep going -
#13 · date not recorded
The water molecules can be charged both ways so don't think of it as a zero voltage but one side carrying the positive charge and the other side carrying the negative charge and they meet in the middle.
In learning how to read the scope shoots you must look at the near vertical lines as those are the times when the positive and negative voltages are taking place at near the same time.
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/personalpics009_zpscf31888c.jpg)
These times are taking place very fast much faster than the relaxation time for water. This is the proper way to read these scope shoots as the times are not equal but near equal and the water molecules are at those times subject to the maximum potential difference that the VIC transformers are making. The frequency for this scope shot is around 5k Hz and that's 5000 times per second. The reading on the oscilloscope give the viewer a false impression of time sort of like riding in a car at high speeds with the windows rolled up. As long as you keep you hands inside of the car you really have no sense of just how fast you are moving but as soon as you put your hand outside then you can feel the speeds you are traveling at.
It is at these near vertical lines where the potential voltages is to be measured at as due to the blocking diode the positive goes to the B+ plate and the negative goes to the B- plate and as you can see the times are almost the same. Remember the blocking diode is acting as a switch so even though it looks like an A/C wave form it is not as the blocking diode will not allow it to be an A/C waveform. So, as you can see it's not good enough to have the ability to see the wave forms produced by the VIC transformers being placed on the exciter array but one must also know and/or understand how to interpret the data they are seeing. This is where I am forced to ignore a lot of people as they simply don't have the necessary education to be able to to solve a technology such as this. If they don't do things the right way they are of little use to me and to this technology as far as figuring it out goes. Following the scientific method is a must for this technology as it has a lot of original ideas in it thus one can't look up a lot of things in any of our books of antiquity. So far I have found three original ideas and created a fourth one on my own. Ideas like these make it very hard for anyone to back engineer this technology as these are totally new ideas and the only way to figure them out is with the use of the scientific method as it forces people to run many experiments.
So, in answering your question the water molecules take the voltage from the plates to the center if the voltages of the B+ and B- voltage fields are equal as water can be charged both ways.
I hope this allows you to understand the need to get the right equipment to do the job as if you don't you are truly flying in the blind on this technology and I am forced to not accept any of your work as it doesn't follow the guidelines the scientific method sets for us all to follow. If anyone refuses to follow the scientific method then I must refuse to accept their work as that is just the way things have to be. I don't make many assumptions as I rely on experimental data and observations to make choices as that is the way the scientific method allows me to move forwards with this technology. I hope this lets everyone understand how I work and why I seem to be so strict all the time.
Shalom,
TGS
-
#14 · date not recorded
The thing Mr. Ed is forgetting - and will continue to ignore (unscientifically) - is that there is no such thing as 'negative potential'. All potential is positive. Negative values are based on the convenience of assigning the earth's surface potential as 'zero'. With positive hv potential on one electrode, and much less positive potential on the other, the strongest potential field will still be at the surface of the stronger electrode.
If he's talking about charge, in the sense that presence of electrons makes a negative charge while absence of electrons makes a positive charge, then his 'dual charged mini capacitor' theory violates Stan Meyer's stipulation of minimal current. Without current, one side of a capacitor can't develop a negative electron charge. -
#15 · date not recorded
The thing Mr. Ed is forgetting - and will continue to ignore (unscientifically) - is that there is no such thing as 'negative potential'. All potential is positive. Negative values are based on the convenience of assigning the earth's surface potential as 'zero'. With positive hv potential on one electrode, and much less positive potential on the other, the strongest potential field will still be at the surface of the stronger electrode.
If he's talking about charge, in the sense that presence of electrons makes a negative charge while absence of electrons makes a positive charge, then his 'dual charged mini capacitor' theory violates Stan Meyer's stipulation of minimal current. Without current, one side of a capacitor can't develop a negative electron charge.
Yup. I agree here with yr explanation.
Its called a potential difference, is it.
One pole with more or less electrons then the other.
-
#16 · date not recorded
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/10_5VOLTAGECHARINGEFFECT.png)
As said in Meyer's work a "difference of potential across the water gap." I really don't think I need to explain myself any further do I? as Meyer puts it in writing for us right here. The actual waveform looks a little different but I just explained to everyone how to interpret their data when looking at these wave forms. With that being said let us look at this waveform again and notice that at first there is a potential difference that is negative and positive but as time goes on the negative voltage actually turns into positive voltage which is just a difference of positive voltage, correct?
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/Maxswaveform_zps9f62fd25.png)
Now that you all know how to go about reading and interpreting the experimental data you can see that this waveform shows a failure to get the maximum potential difference as the negative side isn't charging up. Meyer has it clearly marked showing a B+ and B- voltage and in this screen shot the negative voltage potential doesn't start to build up. After comparing what the two of us did differently the load that Max placed on the VIC transformer is a lot greater than the load I placed on the VIC transformer and the result of doing so was a loss in the negative voltage potential or B- voltage.
Now thanks to Massive we should all be able to see that Meyer's work is that of Ionization as that is a property of the water molecules have and this technology makes it so it is not such a random event as the conditions are made favorable by placing water molecules in a high voltage potential difference field.
Shalom,
TGS -
#17 ·
Yup. I agree here with yr explanation.
Its called a potential difference, is it.
One pole with more or less electrons then the other.
Potential takes the form of an rf field. The field causes electrons and other charged particles to move. The potential field itself doesn't have any electrons. It's just a signal. A difference of electrons built up on the two plates is the static charge. Meyer shows two forces, the static charges and the pulsating potential - even when one plate is grounded.
When referring to mini caps being charged, he certainly wasn't talking about adding electrons to the Oxygen. That would be only electrolysis. The charge is the potential that the valence electrons have to fall back to lower levels. There is no change in the number of electrons his water molecule has. So this charging isn't static. -
#18 ·
since starting thread I have been looking for forumals ... ... havent been kicking back waiting for answer to fall in my lap
I tried to find dissociation of hydronium . hydroxide = easy!
http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Acids_and_Bases/Aqueous_Solutions/The_Hydronium_Ion
this site mentions hydronium increase = pH decrease
"Because hydronium- and hydroxide ions can “move without actually moving” and thus without having to plow their way through the solution by shoving aside water molecules as do other ions, solutions which are acidic or alkaline have extraordinarily high electrical conductivities."
kindve rings a bell about radio wave of the Kanzius guy
is it possible SM was dicing with pH from acid to base , electrically and using pH 7 as a non conductive point or zero point
Im talking high freq not slow chemistry level
also what do I know Im just throwing this in there
the article also mentions "holes and electrons" , no different than semi conductor talk
with hydronium I cant see what it would break down to , 11 proton , 10 electron ,therefore + ion , its heading for neg plate .....
-
#19 ·
i would not like to put fire on the wood but actually meyer waveform is meaningless is simply a doubled frequency increasing in potential... there is 1 million manners of replicating this exact waveform and you still not apply the correct fields on water to make the molecule split apart...
when you show me your waveform you give me nothing... summing with your drawing where coil start and polarity confuse whoever try to look at it... Wasn't you that complained about my pencil made drawings? where is your dot convention? do you understand how you draw it?
its really sad to see so much confusion...
massive do you agree that for every atom species you want to ionize in that way you need to put one electron or take it out of water?
-
#20 ·
since starting thread I have been looking for forumals ... ... havent been kicking back waiting for answer to fall in my lap
I tried to find dissociation of hydronium . hydroxide = easy!
http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Acids_and_Bases/Aqueous_Solutions/The_Hydronium_Ion
this site mentions hydronium increase = pH decrease
"Because hydronium- and hydroxide ions can “move without actually moving” and thus without having to plow their way through the solution by shoving aside water molecules as do other ions, solutions which are acidic or alkaline have extraordinarily high electrical conductivities."
kindve rings a bell about radio wave of the Kanzius guy
is it possible SM was dicing with pH from acid to base , electrically and using pH 7 as a non conductive point or zero point
Im talking high freq not slow chemistry level
also what do I know Im just throwing this in there
the article also mentions "holes and electrons" , no different than semi conductor talk
with hydronium I cant see what it would break down to , 11 proton , 10 electron ,therefore + ion , its heading for neg plate .....
I'm with you on that as I don't think the hydronium ions will be broken down either as they are held together too strongly. Plus we already saw that in nature the hydroxide ion does in fact get broken down with lightening so I think us working together on this right now have our answer. The breakdown of the hydroxide ions is what produces the gas production in Meyer's technology as remember the hydrogen molecules contribute a red glow to make the over all glow violet when air gets ionized that has a high humidity to it.
Meyer also talks about the reaction lasting for a while after the system has been shut down and this could be due to the hydronium ions dumping their charge onto the hydroxide ions with enough energy to break their bonds. It's just a thought for now as I don't have the equipment to take a close look at this but perhaps I know someone that does. I'll give him a call and see if he'd like to test this out for us once I have everything up and running.
It was very interesting to see how they both move without moving thanks for the share very interesting stuff. You might find this study of interest: http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm
This page also talks about hydronium being very stable: http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ionisoh.html and a lot about the hydroxide ions.
I think we are in uncharted territory here as this reaction would need to be run and then it's Ph balance tested in a before and after test and against time to see it the reaction stabilizes as the gas production decreases to see if in fact there is a build up of hydronium ions in the water bath. I might need to pick up a good ph tester for this but the good doctor I know has all the good stuff lets just hope he is willing to test things out for us.
Shalom,
TGS -
#21 ·
massive do you agree that for every atom species you want to ionize in that way you need to put one electron or take it out of water?
yes
I shouldve just put pen to paper instead of searching
*Ignoring neutrons to make it less clutter
POSITIVE plate < OH- anion is attracted (9p 10e) = 2 e taken by Postive plate
O monatomic released (8p 8e)
H+ cation repelled (1p)
NEGATIVE plate < H3O+ cation is attracted (11p 10e) = 1 e given to H+ from OH-, 1e given to H+from H3O+
H+ monatomic released (1p 1e)
H2O formed (10p 10e)
this is similar to what george wiseman has with sodium hydroxide but with out sodium Hydroxide....., I couldnt find any break down formula any where of straight water
-
#22 ·
^^^ thats 2 for 2 electrons which is the same ol electrolysis , but what if the water molecule wasnt allowed to reform -
#23 · date not recorded
in my "opinion" you are going off track ... i doubted for long time about what meyer was doing and saying and i also thought he messed around with the ions and also auto ionization propriety of water... i considered all that... thru the way... i learned some physiics which helped guiding better my intuition... but today what i can see is that meyer was indeed looking into splitting the molecule... the ions were only rocks in his way only... thats one view..
in my view as i already declared... the atoms in the molecules simply as Stan also claimed become independent forming monoatomic atoms by action of the electrical polarization process that it is subjected than subsequently forms with another atoms diatomic molecules and exit as a neutral gas... when electron extraction circuit is implemented the gas will exit charged... theres no net charge in the water molecule....
simple as that...
its possible that the some gas come out ionized from the electrical polarization process with polarity according to the switch off programation. this will be a very small percenteage of the outcoming gas since im trying to not dealing with exchange of electrons... that wold be just the lost from voltage zones...
as meyer lately said and nobody could see i clear it up to you the next step would be electron extraction... right?
my question to you and its something meyer already mentioned... does water accept any other electrons?
-
#24 · date not recorded
^^^ thats 2 for 2 electrons which is the same ol electrolysis , but what if the water molecule wasnt allowed to reform
From my observations nothing comes together in the field thus giving the chance for hydrogen and oxygen gas production all I need to do now is run the experiment and check to see if the hydronium concentration went up and that will be all the proof we need. I must also check to see how long it takes the water to go back into equilibrium with a ph of 7. Thanks for everything as this puts us clearly on the right path as now I know how to calculate the hydronium ion concentration from the ph readings. This reaction should push the system out of equilibrium as why else would Meyer say it takes time to stop producing gas after the power is turned off?
As for anyone with lots of doubt I must ignore you now as I haven't the time to lay it all out on the line for you to understand just what is going on anymore.
TGS -
#25 · date not recorded
your ignorance wont help you...
please film yourself while you burn your ph meter...