101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
Started by unknown · date unknown · 88 posts
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#1 ·
At risk of angering a lot of Stan Meyer fans, is anyone testing a 101 plate series cell with Boyce custom wound toroid and G board ? -
#2 · date not recorded
I'm in the process of the build and have a ways before any testing.
Bob Boyce toroid, 129 turn secondary, had 130 turn on it but the .080" spacers (weed wacker line) allowed 129 turns perfectly spaced .080" on outer toroid core.
Primary I wanted 42 turns but ended with 41 I believe.
Checking Bob's PDF's and info this wind should be within the spec.
Series cell 101 plate, 9.5" by 5.5", a deviation from the suggested 6x6 plate. Should be within limits. But constructed in a flow through arrangement (bottom to top) no holes in plate and water feed from bottom.
At one point I want to be able to experiment with reflow gases through the cell container that are highly charged.
PWM3G board, but I will pull the 556's, attach an Arduino and pulse the transistor drivers in a separate phase configuration to search for the tiny phase offset and small pulse width.
My belief from research over the years is that the minimal voltage will tickle the water causing the water atoms to reach stretching action and a few atoms in the clusters will separate and the lower voltage will restrict the current in the cell itself. 1.5vdc per plate.
Now while the atom stretch is going on the pulses within the toroid from the primary's will or should just snap them apart.
These pulse timings are already based on frequency's that react with water. Just need a very minor shift/adjustment.
On top of this a created vortex magnetic field within the toroid/field from 3 phase spin should also imprint into the atom possibly giving it all a boost maybe by pushing on the structure of the atoms and inserting a higher/charged magnetic field.
In the Boyce system there appears to be multiple actions/reactions going on.
Some of this is relative to Meyers system.
This may not be the information you are looking for but I'm also looking for others that will talk openly about their experimentation with the 101 cell and Boyce TPU system.
We can never have enough info.
John -
#3 ·
John, This is exactly the conversation I want to have. I have a complete setup, built to exact specs I am currently testing now. I have built an improved design 101 dry cell with the thoughts of introducing gas back into the cell at a later time myself, an idea i`m borrowing from all the Stan fans on this site. The G board will preform very well "exactly" as designed, but puts out the freq. at random [untied]. This is its weakness. Your idea to attach an Arduino is a good one and I will be following it closely. The winding of the torroid may well be my shortcoming. It requires a complicated math formula and then only after extensive conditioning of the plates to perfectly match the impedence of the cell. I can tell you I have light years of conditioning on my cell. I have tested primary turns fro 38 to 41 on the torroid with no apparent change in production. This is the area I have been concentrating on most. Also there is much problems with the choke designs in this circuit. What little has been written on this does not agree. Thru out all my testing I have always been able to see my waveforms behind the chokes and in places where they should not be. Remember, everything that has been written about this setup is secondhand information and much is wrong. I have over the years collected every bit and piece of info on this and found many discrepancies. This cell being my 3rd build with these same plates solves many of the problems the early replications had and I will share it all. I am a good fabricator, but fall short in in the circuit design end of it. This is where I need the help. Looking forward to a good discussion. Nick -
#4 ·
Nick, I 'm guessing you have many of the PDF's of the Boyce TPU.
I'll upload the one I'm using.
Now this PDF has the bias windings on it and its not designed for HHO with these windings, but the rest of the info is what I used for HHO TPU.
Also a second PDF.
Lets look at the basics.
The wire used is a silver over copper Teflon coated on the TPU core as per PDF.
There are 3 chokes 2 of which on the HV side are wound with copper and the third on the LV side is wound with the silver over copper wire.
In my kit I got 3 toroids 2" or so but were spec'ed by Boyce. Out of the 3 toroids 1 is a different model although the same size.
I'm thinking I was told to wrap the one toroid with my remainders of silver/copper from the secondary wind and it goes on the primary side.
My take right now is to wind these 3 toroids with the same sized wire (ampere rating) used on the large toroid and wound pretty much all the way around the little toroids not based on any circuit formula at this time. I'm thinking magnetics here, just a core with a magnetic field introduced into the wire. Almost sounds slightly like current limiting.
The PWM3G I'm also guessing the way it is set up has 3 channels but cannot offset the phases (right?).
There is no delay from channel 1 2 or 3 so basically the 42.8k pulse channel will fire with the 21.4k and 10.7k all at the same time.
So any phasing happens when the pulses hit that primary but are placed on the secondary at 120 degree increments just using the PWM3G.
Makes me wonder if the TPU can react, I don't think its right.
What I see is lets start with the 10.7k pulse. According to the PDF it should be adjusted to produce your best output with the cell.
So it appears you must be able to measure any gas output and check this flow while adjusting the 10.7k to attain its highest point of gas which according to Bob is slightly off the 10.7k mark.
I attached the basic timing pulse model.
With that model I see if we use the 42.8k pulse with very tiny width each pulse has to be able to use the space between for the other 2 pulses and all appear to have a 50% duty.
First group fires and before the 42.8k pulse fires again the 21.4 & 10.7 have fired all with 50% time between them.
I believe the system is working on the magnetic vortex made from the pulse fire.
With the standard unmodified PWM3G it would be tough to get much reaction and that's what I think has been the trouble with this build.
It needs to be phased correctly.
I'm not a good electronics guy but know just a little and should be enough to modify that PWM3G using its drivers and transistors firing channeled pulses from the arduino.
Hopefully with the help of others we can see this in action one day.
Actually you really need to modify your setup right now to get the phasing part into action.
One more attachment, picture borrowed from a post at energeticforum, hope that's okay.
This picture reminds me of a vortex field happening on a toroid if phase pulsed.
Also make a notation that the field Boyce had a primary concern on was a longitudal wave not a standing wave.
I'm trying to get a grip of this too!
Just trying to get us started with some of the info we need and maybe others will eventually chime in.
John
Looks like I'm having problems posting the PDF's so I'll try the pictures first. Something about exceeding 30 seconds execution time.
Yeh I can't upload the pdf's.dualtorus.gif pulse timing.jpg
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#5 ·
About the Arduino.....
At the HydrogenGarage is a video of Donna pulsing a Boyce PWM.
http://hydrogengarage.com/PWM3g/
This is just to show that an Arduino can pulse the Boyce PWM.
Other than that Donna is showing using the XY of the scope the signal which appears to be aether type energy.
The Arduino comes in many different variations and I got the Mega. Doesn't matter which one really but check for PWM channels usually 6 and the Mega has 14 I think.
Willem known as TXQnl over at RWGresearch made up a opensource PulseFire program that looks promising.
Also at RWGresearch Russ has quite a bit on info on the Arduino and made a test rig.
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=440&highlight=pulsefire
Here is another site where Willem has posted info.
http://pulsefire.nongnu.org/
Since I'm just starting out I have run into the first obstacle using the pulsefire software and that is the BootStrap has to be modified.
I found the modified bootstrap Willem posted and now you have to get a small programmer to change this BootStrap on the Arduino.
It appears the BootStrap will not reset with the PulseFire software so thats why he modified it, the program makes a reset of the BootStrap I guess.
A TinyAVR BootStrap loader programmer should take care of this update. It loads a modified BootLoader.
I sure would love to try this PulseFire program out, as it looks pretty nice and may have what we need to program various pulses.
Looks like with the program we could test the pulse out then write it to the arduino.
Or if we can program the Arduino to make the pulses and use potentiometers for duty/delay and frequency and use a 2 or 4 line display to change modes in operation.
The arduino has much more possibility later on when safety's and other control may arise, as there are many many options that can be incorporated.
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#6 · date not recorded
Okay, Let me say from the start a lot of this is over my head already, but I will tell you what I have done and my results so far. First at 160vdc [1.6v per plate] and no leaks or bypass you have no production. Zero, zzzzillch. 50% duty cycle is about the best you could hope for on the g board with out frying the fets, but this is opposite of what you want. According to Bob and others a very fast,sharp rise and fall times is what is needed to tap the ZPE. To achieve this, the duty cycle needs to be between 90 and 95%. Since this board switches neg.this is 5 to 10% on time. At these settings, the output of the board is about 12.5 to 13vdc and about 35milamps. Absolutely no production at these low voltages. I have sat for hours on end slowly turning the fine trimpots, going thru the complete range on all 3 freq. at many different duty cycles. As you said earlier, many different things going on here. On one hand we are to believe that this fast ,sharp rise in switching times is what is needed to disturb the zero point energys and to get our gain, [many at this site agree with this]. At this low power I can not see how the freq. can have any effect on the cell. I have seen nothing yet. I have went the 50, 60% duty cycle way as well, burning up many fets and caps . Even tried replacing them with heaver ones with no different results. Back to the chokes. I have tried solid copper, stranded and even bifiller with several different cores. [in the early D9 docs. there was no specs given]. Shouldn`t the chokes help contain the freq. to inside the cell to get resonance ? I can see my 3 freq. behind the bridge and have seen it at the battery as well. -
#7 · date not recorded
Well I am not even at a testing stage so any input from me is just theoretical and how a person like me views it.
In the picture below of the pulse form are those pulses not fast, sharp, rise, fall times. They appear that way to me.
Notice these pulses are phased, do yours look anything like it?
On these pulses start with 42.8khz, it stays on 16.6% of the time.
The 21.4khz pulse stays on 16.6% of time
The 10.7khz pulse the same 16.6%.
That's what it looks like.
The 16.6% also is the off time between the pulses which all appears 50% duty between the formed phased pulses in a view of all 3 phasing together.
Do you see what I see just in the picture?
That pulse picture came from one of Bob's PDF's.
If we have control of the pulse width on the arduino to achieve 5% to 50% on time (duty) we should be able to create something that looks like the phased pulse picture.
According to Bob and others a very fast,sharp rise and fall times is what is needed to tap the ZPE.
To achieve this, the duty cycle needs to be between 90 and 95%.
Looking at the PWM3G sitting on the table, it cannot make the phased pulse as the picture below.
My view is you need this phasing to create the vortex shaping around the toroid.
Bob makes warning about the safety issues concerned with phasing, in the PDF doc he spent a lot of time phase pulsing and did bring forth destructive force into his work place.
This HHO toroid setup is not as powerful as the DC biased multi channel coils rig.
Shouldn`t the chokes help contain the freq. to inside the cell to get resonance ?
You would think the answer should be yes, they are just there to help soak up BEMF from the toroid to protect the circuit and filter the AC into a nice DC line.
This setup is supposed to work on the vortex magnetic field created from phasing and shaping on the toroid.
You need a vision of shaping a field you can't see, that's why I posted the earlier picture of the lines going around the torus.
This is where I believe the basic Boyce toroid setup has failed, no field pulse phasing on the toroid.
I'm only guessing and wish I were at the testing stages and building my pulse interface system with the arduino.
Right now I'm at the point of trying to find a machinist to cut my plastic out at a reasonable rate, its only a few pieces of plastic but needs to be cut on a CNC.
pulse timing speed.jpg
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#8 · date not recorded
Hey Nick,
Wondering if you connected a variac out the inverter and raised your voltage from 120 just up enough to start current conduction in the cell.
Also I'm guessing you have the appropriate electrolyte.?
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#9 · date not recorded
John, I do have a variac connected and can get up to a max voltage of about 208vdc and max amp draw is 8.5 to 9 amps. It may draw more amps if I let it run for an hour or more which I would not do. I keep NAOH at 26 to 28%. This will produce gas at brute force with the best of them. Many times I have calculated 14 - 15 liters per minute, even at less amps. That being said I am here to achieve "resonance drive". Please do not confuse my obvious frustration with arrogance as I am certainly not that way. My lack of understanding of simple electrical principals has not served me well. I feel the brightest and sharpest minds are on this forum and I am here to learn. I am no expert on reading my scope, but my 3 freq. seem to be in no order or shift but purely random. If all 3 duty cycles are set between 94 to 96% would they not all be firing at about the same rate in no particular order ? I have also read of the dangers of a rotating field or vortex in the torroid. This is Bob`s reason for not releasing the HEX controller. In studying this it seems others have done this and more in trying to create antigravity machines and other types of free energy devices yet I have not heard of any lightning strikes . My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell? -
#10 · date not recorded
John, I do have a variac connected and can get up to a max voltage of about 208vdc and max amp draw is 8.5 to 9 amps. It may draw more amps if I let it run for an hour or more which I would not do. I keep NAOH at 26 to 28%. This will produce gas at brute force with the best of them. Many times I have calculated 14 - 15 liters per minute, even at less amps. That being said I am here to achieve "resonance drive". Please do not confuse my obvious frustration with arrogance as I am certainly not that way. My lack of understanding of simple electrical principals has not served me well. I feel the brightest and sharpest minds are on this forum and I am here to learn. I am no expert on reading my scope, but my 3 freq. seem to be in no order or shift but purely random. If all 3 duty cycles are set between 94 to 96% would they not all be firing at about the same rate in no particular order ? I have also read of the dangers of a rotating field or vortex in the torroid. This is Bob`s reason for not releasing the HEX controller. In studying this it seems others have done this and more in trying to create antigravity machines and other types of free energy devices yet I have not heard of any lightning strikes . My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
I remember on his rev.e board I had to pulse the 10.7 frequency and get the other 2 in line with it.I wish i still had the square wave picture my camera caught when all 3 frequencies wer in line with each other... it couldnt be seen with the naked eye on the scope but the picture from my camera of the scope screen captured it.All 3 frequencies are harmonically related and will fit inside each other when in tune wich in turn raises the amplitude of the 2 lower frequencies respectivly.The narrow pulse width of each pulse made it kind of difficult to fit em inside each other ... i think i remember him sayin on the digital version 12ms or 12us on each pulse worked out?? I dont have any boards now other than rev.c that had some trace mistakes on it or a soldering station...still have my scope and some parts tho... hopeing santa brings me a solering station
I didnt get to play with it much before my x wife threw it all away after 4 years of constant research :/ but it was my oppinion after seeing his way of modulating the amplitude with the harmonic pulses... there was a time when the pulse comes down..or just as before it comes down a void was there- I imagined it like a stobe light.. the pulse goes up/the strobe light was on... the strobe light blinks off and the pulse comes down... durring that blink off i imagined being able to stick something else in there or allow something else to get in but then read about the 120 degree phasing thing and got confused...its deffinately nice to see ppl here working on his stuff how is Mr.Boyce and whats he up to these days?
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#11 · date not recorded
Nick, I don't want to say anything wrong so don't ruin your conditioned cell with any brute force exceeding what you have already done.
Its still good to know you gave it 208vdc but that's after the caps and diode bridge. Makes me wonder where you measured that 208vdc and had the current meter connected.
Looks like you got 1LPM per 126watts which is good but no resonance.
In the last couple years Bob also stated that trying to achieve his resonance would be much harder because the magnetic action on the earth created by that enormous planetary asteroid that's still passing us by, wonder if that is holding true. Do others have this same problem?
On your primary wiring did you wind it bunched together or along each separate secondary wire underneath ?
Any pictures of your setup?
Have you added any coils just before the cell connections?
That is where I would guess you would add a coil(s) and should be calculated electronically. But I don't know how that would work with this setup because the DC filter after the inverter.
Its very hard to find others doing the Boyce 101 and PWM3G that are sharing their work.
Is there anyone out there?
I'd like to find out a little bit more on the primary wind over the secondary and what would be the difference of a tightly wound primary verses a primary wound in the space between the secondary wind.
My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
Personally there has to be a way to create the resonance Boyce spoke of. It wasn't with coils or maybe I just have not seen it with them. I still believe in controlled Phasing.
Hi newguy thanks for chiming in.
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#12 · date not recorded
Here's my toroid.
I have not cut the primary's yet thinking to myself should it be a tighter wind or is it okay like this?
The primary's will be cut at the 1/3rd marks and peeled back a turn on each side of the marks.
P1010802.JPG P1010805.JPG P1010803.JPG
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#13 ·
John, Looks like nice work to me. My secondary came out to 129 turns spaced just like yours. My primaries I wound with 3 different colors spaced just like yours, never overlapping. 41 turns came out just touching when finished. The 208 vdc was measured right at the cell. At this time I am not using an inverter choosing to use 120 wall current to a 120 variac, to a 120 to 240 transformer to the bridge and cap. My amp reading was at 8.5 to 9 amps ac on 1 leg of the 110ac before the variac. Before we get into the weeds to far, maybe we could address some of the things we have mentioned so far. Maybe others will chime in as well. How do you feel about the statement; "the primaries can not be off by more than 1 turn as the board will not be able to compensate an you will not be able to tune". And should we just use the simple chokes and not worry about it. We have not discussed the impedence matching of the cell to the electronics as well. Up to this point I have tried replicate every thing exactly as Boyce says. Although the cell is of dry cell design it matches Bob`s cell in every way except the case. I would recommend a dry cell design over the plastic case any day. The early cases had so many problems with current bypassing behind the HDPE and the acrylic. Much arcing, burning tracks etching into the plastic and a few explosions! Also during cleansing and conditioning there was always some warping and distortion with the heat. I have seen a few of the new design boxes and they have come a long way but I would still never go that route again. I think a dry cell is almost bullitproof and definitely the way to go. Yes I do have many pics of everything if this will help. -
#14 ·
Nick, the measurement you made before the variac changes the calculation big time.
If you measured 9 amps on a 120vac line = 1080 watts and you got 14 lpm that's an astounding 77 watts per liter of gas per minute.
This shows something good happening.
The value of MMW is going to be fairly high.
I calculate 12.9 MMW which I'm sure is showing overunity already. Maybe not like Bob's but this is great.
So I can't seem to picture your cell, you say dry cell and that reminds me of hole through plate design.
I'm trying to find out how isolated are your plates that may have bearing on efficiency of design.
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#15 ·
No holes thru the plates but no overunity either. I promise. I do believe the 101 plate cell to be a better design and has advantages over the tube setup. Still, just plain old electrolysis though . "My" design however does require a Bridgeport to do some precision drilling thru thin HDPE but is otherwise simple, durable and easy enough to build. It would take quite a lot of explanation and more than a few pics to explain it though. But I`m willing if any are that interested. -
#16 ·
Its starting to sound like my approach.
But I'm not using thin strips or plate of HDPE.
I'm using 1/2" bottom and top with hole through design.
Then 1/2" will be embedded by 1" HDPE.
So being that holes are drilled through 1/2" of plastic the point of least resistance is through each plate and not around it.
Being built as such we should see the high efficiency.
Don't forget the MMW and unity figures are posted from a old antiquated system from the past.
We'll have to PM each other and have a discussion over the phone provided you are USA based.
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#17 ·
Yes, Lets try to keep this thread going. I would like as much input from members here as possible. Some of the brightest and sharpest people in the world right here. I`m looking for some Boyce - Meyers hybrid ideas. Stan would be proud of a lot of replicators here ! -
#18 · date not recorded
@Newguy,
Your x tossed your stuff!
Wow what a disappointment.
Are you going to do the 101 again?
Anything else you can remember from experimenting with this stuff.
How about some more info on the strobe and void I just can't seem to picture this?
Don't really know how Bob's doing.
Its been over 2 years since I spoke with him and it was the only time that I did.
He was very discouraging for me at that time and not promoting research and would not offer up a tid-bit of information whatsoever.
Although he was pleasant to talk with, Bob was no help to me.
All I wanted to do was watch a few old videos that used to be posted, Sterling told me to get permission from Bob.
This is a total fiasco run around.John, I do have a variac connected and can get up to a max voltage of about 208vdc and max amp draw is 8.5 to 9 amps. It may draw more amps if I let it run for an hour or more which I would not do. I keep NAOH at 26 to 28%. This will produce gas at brute force with the best of them. Many times I have calculated 14 - 15 liters per minute, even at less amps. That being said I am here to achieve "resonance drive". Please do not confuse my obvious frustration with arrogance as I am certainly not that way. My lack of understanding of simple electrical principals has not served me well. I feel the brightest and sharpest minds are on this forum and I am here to learn. I am no expert on reading my scope, but my 3 freq. seem to be in no order or shift but purely random. If all 3 duty cycles are set between 94 to 96% would they not all be firing at about the same rate in no particular order ? I have also read of the dangers of a rotating field or vortex in the torroid. This is Bob`s reason for not releasing the HEX controller. In studying this it seems others have done this and more in trying to create antigravity machines and other types of free energy devices yet I have not heard of any lightning strikes . My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
I remember on his rev.e board I had to pulse the 10.7 frequency and get the other 2 in line with it.I wish i still had the square wave picture my camera caught when all 3 frequencies wer in line with each other... it couldnt be seen with the naked eye on the scope but the picture from my camera of the scope screen captured it.All 3 frequencies are harmonically related and will fit inside each other when in tune wich in turn raises the amplitude of the 2 lower frequencies respectivly.The narrow pulse width of each pulse made it kind of difficult to fit em inside each other ... i think i remember him sayin on the digital version 12ms or 12us on each pulse worked out?? I dont have any boards now other than rev.c that had some trace mistakes on it or a soldering station...still have my scope and some parts tho... hopeing santa brings me a solering station
I didnt get to play with it much before my x wife threw it all away after 4 years of constant research :/ but it was my oppinion after seeing his way of modulating the amplitude with the harmonic pulses... there was a time when the pulse comes down..or just as before it comes down a void was there- I imagined it like a stobe light.. the pulse goes up/the strobe light was on... the strobe light blinks off and the pulse comes down... durring that blink off i imagined being able to stick something else in there or allow something else to get in but then read about the 120 degree phasing thing and got confused...its deffinately nice to see ppl here working on his stuff how is Mr.Boyce and whats he up to these days? -
#19 ·
The only thing that is strange to me is the multiple primary and this phase stuff i think this is bogus... probably KISS method complies better.
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#20 ·
Seb, I'm disappointed I thought maybe you would see some interest in this.
A rotational magnetic field, sort of a vortex so to speak.
This is something out of the norm.
It appears normal doesn't work and will not generate an anomaly or the difference that's needed.
This seems like exciting research.
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#21 ·
Fab, In concept I actually think the set up is pretty simple. My problem is I`m to simple to understand it. -
#22 ·
I never had the 101 box.. i just had rev.b,c,and e boards.I "had" a 4x8 sheet of 304 sliced up, a bunch of tubes and some more stuff and yea... she threw it away durring a split up.I still have most of my Herman Anderson stuff.a 7 cell i screwed up and drilled holes in the bottom and a few 5" tubes and rods.Bob was nice enough to let me in for nearly a year as i first got envolved searching about this stuff,he was interested more in other projects after a while and we lost touch.
The void thing i imagined was how his pulses effected each other.. it was like if we can get a sub harmonic with the same amplitude to do this, how would a really high amplitude harmonic act as well...about then is when he told me about how the naked eye couldnt see everything soooo, i got my camera out and shot a bunch of pics of my scope screen and sure enuff.. i had a picture of a square wave with a little wave on the top of it that my naked eye could not see.It was then i started watching the scope screen with every detail i could and started to imagine there was something going on in the transition time from peak of rise before fall of the pulse...a little later 120 degree phasing on the windings ,a littlle out of resonace was the wild stuff if i remember right..thise was 6 years ago Bob was the reason I have scope and interest of imagination and believe in this stuff.Im tring to see if i can get my old project pictures but im not having much luck at that so far.
I -
#23 ·
Guy, You have got me interested now. You know I`m gonna be trying that tomorrow. I would like to have a look at those pics if you ever find them. -
#24 ·
Newguy, You know what they say about the reason a divorce is sooo....expensive. BECAUSE ITS WORTH IT ! -
#25 ·
Guy, You have got me interested now. You know I`m gonna be trying that tomorrow. I would like to have a look at those pics if you ever find them.
they wer on oupower.com under kevinsatterfield.. i havent heard back from chris yet if he has them archived or not .