AncientMist

Hi Everyone,

I've been studying the GEET system and would like some input from others on this forum. Do we have any active members here that have replicated the system? Any feedback with the technology is much appreciated! I would like to design a simple GEET setup for testing and development. Actually, I have some design work already completed. Just seeing what others have done in the past. Thanks

Ok. I am not sure if anyone has put this together but here goes.

Stan did point out the theory/process in his Tech Brief and his patents and here is why. First I am going to talk about the principle of electronics of a general nature.

Electricity needs voltage and current. Voltage in electrical is pressure. Current is the flow of electrons per sec. So what is the flow of electrons which is current? Well you need voltage of course, but what voltage does is push the physical mass of the electrons physical mass which is the electron out of each orbit of copper or related material to produce movement to create electricity. The reason this can be done is the force of the outer orbit of the electron in copper is very weak. Voltage pushes the electron. This physical force of the electrons creates current. Ok.

Now if we look at Stans equation he points out out acceleration = Force/mass. Mass is the physical component and the Force is Voltage which is represent by the formula of two charges/radius^2. This is directly related to the flow of current.

So how does this work for Stans process. Well it is easy. The physical mass of his circuit was directly relate to the atoms of Oxygen and Hydrogen aka(Water). The higher voltage is needed to push the physical mass of the atoms apart. The force of voltage does need to be in both opposition to each other.  Meaning a high positive and high negative voltage on both sides. One of the positive voltage pulls the oxygen atom while the negative side pulls the hydrogen atom. The reason for the high voltages is looked at because you are pulling a very much larger mass. 

Now I know most everyone know this but the point I am make is how his circuit does not use current. He is building a high voltage to create the force need to act on the water molecule. The only current draw is the circuit resistance getting to build a charge across the capacitor.

It is no different than the theory of electricity which has the same principles. Instead you are looking at it at a larger scale from the atom itself.

This is how voltage can work by splitting the water molecule!!

I do have a feeling when he was talking about LC resonance he was not clear on the true capacitance. The true capacitance is the coils capacitance combined with the WFC. This is also may be why he went and used smaller tube to create smaller capacitance to match with the coils capacitance.  The inductance is still the same but all coil inductance in series.

Hey I found some information. I want to give this person credit for finding this information for Stan Meyers used to describe a resonant charging choke. User name is kinesisfilms on WaterFuelCell. I found this information here and this was in mid 2008
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8412

He discusses a choke having its own resonance. Which what I have been discussing. Look at the pics for  better understanding.

In conclusion Stan Meyers saying a resonant charging choke was in the use of a Pulse Forming Network!!! It was right their even though he was not spelling it out for us in simple terms. lol  Just another example on the relation, it was not as a simple inductor.

Well I can try the best I can do. As far as Quantum Physics goes, it is just a self study that just branch off from the two university physics classes I took. What Stan talks about I study to see where he comes from. Hope I can be some help.

Excellent!! On the same page. I did know that Stan did write about the absorption of light from the LEDS to help the ionization process.

He was stating getting the hydrogen and oxygen gases to higher energy states. Even thou the atoms were unstable, the atoms also absorbed electromagnetic energy from all around. So when the Hydrogen and Oxygen linked up the absorbed energy is released as thermal explosive energy. A form of work/energy we can use. This would imply in Thermodynamics this is a open system. The extraction of energy would come from everywhere like I stated before heat, light, or any energy on the electromagnetic spectrum.

Any excellent example the absorption of sunlight for plants is energy that is used for the building process to grow.The sunlight is stored in the form of combined compounds. Later this can be released as fuel. Like firewood, coal, fossil fuels. The energy is stored from the sunlight.

So if we can put energy into the space time, we can use the space time to bring energy into our dimension. Thats why i want to study physics, to learn the Max equations, and general relativity to be able to calculate this things.


There is something called spin connection resonance, SCR, where space time and electromagnetism meet, actually electromagnetism is a consequence of space time.

Hey sebosfato. I see you are having some interesting ideas related for energy extraction. I would like you, me, and anyone else to do the same. But discuss it on a different topic. Reason being is I want to keep this topic related to the build, interaction, and properties of the VIC circuit.

I just started this topic of interest for anyone who would like to voice their ideas on how Stan Meyers used the water as a fuel source that is related to the concept of what Stan called universal energy.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=post;board=1.0

Inductor is said to restricts the amps cause it creates an imaginary resistance, for example, if you short a capacitor it will start to oscillate instead of discharging all in once, this is because it will create a imaginary resistance while it accumulate all the energy in its magnetic fields, after the capacitor is completely empty, as the inductor being like inertia added to the current, thus will want to keep let it keep flowing so the capacitor gets charged with reverse voltage, and this is electrical resonance. A capacitor would have a negative resistance associated so when you connect a capacitor to another similar capacitor +- half of the charge immediately go to the other capacitor however as capacitor have a negative resistance to a difference of potential it becomes a critically dumped oscillation witch readily finish so half the energy is destroyed in the vacuum.

In this analogy are you talking about just a regular capacitor or a coil made capacitor? Like the one I describe have two coils separated by a dielectric material.

I am starting this post to discuss on how Stan used water as a  fuel source. I do not know that much about how he mentions universal energy. To sum it up, what I take on the concept for universal energy, is the extraction of any type of energy all around us. This can be the extraction on electromagnetic energy or the extraction of heat. In simple terms Stanley Meyers used his process to be an energy converter by using water as the medium. A good example would be a alternator is used to convert mechanical energy into electrical energy.

Anyone have any ideas?

I think you mis interpret my post. In his "lecture" movies Stan is talking to (who ever is the class) they talk about needing to increase the voltage on the "water cap", the class responds with increasing the input voltage, to which Stan replies, "or increasing the amount of coils here" to which he adds "coils" to the top inductor (between the diode and the cap). Now what I was pointing out was that if this was just an inductor (regardless of how it is wound) adding coils will not increase the output voltage. This only happens with secondaries on transformers. What I am pointing out is if the "inductors" are actually 2 secondaries in paraelle to each other but in series to the main secondary. Nothing overly new to observe. But this changes the calculation for resonance. I am yet to change the calculation but it will have more to do with the interaction between the inductance of the "inductors" vs the colapse time of their magnetic field vs the charge and colapse time of the secondary vs the capacitance (which changes dependant on gas in the cell).
 
Now all that is one hell of a calculation, also it means that transformers and cells will need to be specifically built as transformers have a range of frequency that they work in, so you will need to know how much capacitance vs inductance you require to build the frequency to operate in. To all of you thinking this sounds easy enough, manipulating the operable frequency ranges of transformers also changes the inductance of the primary and seconary(ies).
 
 
Now to you comment about the diode acting as a pump. I am yet to test this but when put in series with caps diodes also maintain voltage, so by placing the diode in between the inductor and secondary the inductor has the voltage of the cap still present accross it. What happens to the secondary of a transformer when there is a voltage across its winding and you saturate the core with a field? does the voltage increase in proportion? Then when the field colapses and the charge tries to stablize how does this effect the primary? i think there is a lot to the diode, more than making a charge pump out of a resonant tank circuit.
 
Also in tune with this idea, in a lot of Stans drawings he shows that he is recifying the AC and simply using one side of the recifacation. Could you build a reverse circuit? to use the negative side? technically doubling his output from the same work? BUT one step at a time, i am currently trying to source a soft iron square, or even a torid but it is proving difficult where i am.
 
As per normal please feel free to disect and tell me where i am wrong, be sure to include the reason also

CrazyEwok, I see you are making a valid point.

Ok yes you can have a higher a voltage thru the step up transformer.  Another way was to add more coils in series.  This is stated as Stan pointed out is you can add more coils to get higher voltages.  Why does he make the mention of coils?? The key word here is more coils not windings.

Windings on a single coil inductor just raises the inductance. The reason he said coils is because he also wanted to add more capacitance between each coil. This creates a multiple capacitors inside the multiple multilayered coil. Just like the  fig. 6-1 VIC coil assembly. If you look closely why does he not just use the inductor symbol on his drawing but instead he uses the coil symbol.   Sure more coils does add more inductance.  In electronics multiple inductors in series add up to a total inductor. What is more important is the capacitance created thru the addition of each coil.  A coil beside another coil separated by a material creates a capacitor. The real nature of any inductor has a capactiance effect.  A good example is called parasitic capacitance. Parasitic capacitance is capacitance that happens when each winding has different voltage potential separated by a dielectric coating from each turn of the winding. 

After looking at the Tech brief when he says inducatance/capactiance. He was not talking about parasitic capacitance. A regular inductor can have a resonant frequency because of the parasitic capacitance is in parallel to the inductors inductance. In conclusion when  he said add more coils he adds more inductance while adding more capacitors created by the coils.

Ok so enough said about that. Now what is going to happen starting at the input of the transformer. The input transformer will do a step transformer. The reason for the diode is to let current flow thru (the coils and the capacitors creates by coils) in series with the WFC. When the pulse is terminated the resonant choke will resonant with itself with the capacitor. The voltage and current can go anywhere is want to other than back across the diode. The resonant charging choke does what Stan was trying to say... With this the voltage can charge across the water to reach to the point the water will separate. In addition of the time off for the first inductor the second inductor which is magnetically couple creates a second pulse to be utilized for the continuation of the increase of voltage.

The reason for  the use of this type of multiple coil setup is a diode in series with a inductor in series the WFC will only just charge the capacitor. The ionization simulation circuit will show this. By thinking outside of the box the resonance can not happen  with the transformer because the diode prevents this.

I see sebofasto is thinking along this terms. Nice work!

                                               

i don't think the choke was used to extract electrons, he would have a different resistor/light bulb or circuit to do that, not the same as resistive chokes, that is just to add more resistance along side the chokes impedance

in the injector system he replaces the EEC with positively ionized air... he does the EEC on the air first, then when the water is mixed with the air, and split, the air steals the electrons from the water... a neat trick to do the same thing a different way

Good points made on both conclusions.

Yeah Its coming together.

Stanley Meyer says resonant charging choke...  He said it right their,  the word resonant tells it all...  If you have a multilayered coil with its own capacitance it can resonant by itself... The diode prevents the current from going the other way which allowed the coil to resonant by its own capacitance and inductance. This resonanance in the coil itself will increase the voltage to much higher voltages. With the higher voltages in line with the water capacitor it pulls the water molecule apart. As Donaldwfc noted when this was happening their are free electrons floating around . We do not want free floating electrons because this would result with the possibility of the oxygen and hydrogen gases from recombining. To do this the electrons will travel the postive plate which lowered the voltage potential but was consumed along the way towards the inductor due to the resistance between the WFC and choke. Stan helped this process by adding an resistive element between the first choke and the WFC. The resistive element could have been a light bulb or the resistive wire in the VIC coil. This is why the light bulb light up, it is getting its current from the water!!! This was electron extraction circuit, which was part of the WFC process!!  The EEC was used in the WFC, the gas process, and the incoming air processor. Like Stan said.

Now lets look at what Stan said he was producing gas in the off stage. 5 secs on time and up to 90 secs off time. Well it would make sense if energy is stored in the coils inductance and coils capacitance in the on time but when the off time was there it would still be resonating win the off stage. Because the resonance happens in the Choke which is in series with the WFC.
It is noted that the resonance is not between the transformer.

Another thing to point out is that the choke served as two purposes. It was and inductor that did restrict the amps for the incoming current draw from the transformer/input power. The other purpose was to consume the electrons which was the flow of electron from the WFC if it had a high enough resistivity.

In conclusion the Resonant Charging choke did a multiple of things. It increase voltage though its multilayered inductance and multilayered capacitance. It also restrict the amps from the incoming input power. It could also be used to consume electrons from the Water Fuel Cell.

I must say it is all their but I just wish Stanley would have given us a clearer representation on the process. Even though he did but for more practical terms from a electrical engineering standpoint..

I want to here some feedback....

Ancient Mist, read the topic in my projects section on the VIC, i did some experimenting on the 8XA, and will continue to do more, when I get some free time from university.

Your conclusions are on track, in the NZ video he says "if i want to increase hydrogen gas yield all I have to do is increase the size of this coil... someone asks a question ... he says ... I'll just design a new one and wrap more coils to it" ... key word here being "coils", he designs a new bobbin, and adds more coil sections to it, so that capacitance increases with the inductance, and like you said he draws the capacitance in parallel, which is what you get when you have a self resonant coil, when you drive a coil near it's self resonant frequency it's impedance goes to infinity, and the capacitance acts in parallel, and since the choke are there to restrict amps, more inductance means more impedance, and since the chokes are on the same core as the primary, it means they also effect the turns ratio for the step up voltage, so they do BOTH, they increase the voltage, and they increase the amp restriction

Yes Donaldwfc I have taken a look on your conclusions. Good stuff.  The reason I use the Figure 8XA and other beginning Stanley Meyer concepts is because the ideas represented are in the simplest form to learn the theories/basics that would grow into more of Stan's Tech.

Anyways I am just voicing on what I see so on the forums and Stan's Tech in which it can be put together.  This is actually the first time speaking my mind...  Good thing I am with everyone on seeing the unidentified clues that may have been missed that Stan talked about which he just gave it as common Knowledge.

  about the amp surge in the capacitor, think about what this means, the   voltage only means a difference of charge, and for the voltage to be   maintained means that the charge difference has to be maintained, so if   you get an amp surge, this is like saying that the charge has been   quickly neutralized, and it's not all of a sudden sucking a massive   amount of electrons out of the coil, so it's taking charge out of the   water through ions, and if you get enough ions carrying electrons to the   plates then you won't be able to maintain a voltage, so what does this   mean from a design perspective? well when you raise the voltage level   high enough Stan starts talking about entering the liquid to gas   ionization state, and it's about this time that he also introduces the   electron extraction circuit, so that when he starts ionizing the water,   he is able to, and has to, remove the electrons, or they would   neutralize the charge on the plates, so i imagine, when someone gets to   this experimental stage, they would notice the effect, and then realize   maybe they have extra electrons in the water bath they should try to   pull out, and if they are there, they should come out of the water,   which solves the problem, as well provides free electricity, and sets   you up with destabilized gas atoms which when burned will burn hotter,   and release

This is an interesting observation. I would of never thought of this. Thank you. So you are saying when voltage is increased to a high enough voltage the electrons that are coming out of the water will neutralize the voltage on the tube resulting in a decrease in voltage. If this is the case then you do not want to have a dielectric breakdown because if this happens voltage will stabilize to 0 voltage potential.

So after getting down and understanding the voltage pulse increase. How is this accomplished? In the charging of the capacitor the diode prevents the blocking of current in the opposite direction. The only thing I can think of is that made sense is a charging of a capacitor with short   pulses. These short pulses would look like rectified DC. The rectified pulsed DC charges the capacitor.  Along the way the voltage will be high enough for dielectric breakdown. 
 
The question is  in the patent 4936961 how is it achieved only the uses the a step up of 3 to 1 and a input of 26 volts which result of 78 volts ouput? How does the capacitor increase to 1000 volts. What I seen on the Tesla DC Circuit the voltage can by multiplied by a factor of two. So if 78 volts x 2 = 156 volts.  So 156 volts is the maximum voltage across the capacitor inline with the inductor.

The Telsa DC resonant charging circuit is here. http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html

Any suggestions??  How can Stan get the voltage up over 1000 volts with such little input voltage that built over time? 

The chokes are part of the secondary, as he says in the control and driver patent, and if you look at the transformer you can see it has 5 coils all on the same core, the meaning of a secondary is a coil on the core that picks up magnetic flux induced by the primary, so anything that is not a primary coil (or input coil) is a secondary coil (or output coil) ... and the "three secondaries" (secondary and two chokes) are in series... there are different ways to think of it, but they all have a voltage induced in them from the core, and they are connected together, electrically and/or magnetically

the diode is used to disconnect the circuit (open circuit) (non-conducting)(diodes only conduct in ONE direction) when the voltage goes negative, to keep it from discharging the capacitor, and to allow the magnetic field from the chokes to collapse and create another pulse, to double the frequency

Really appreciate the analysis on how the coil interacts with each other... I actually had a good understanding on that and very informative for anyone that does not have a clear understanding.

the resonance is not AC resonance

the ground you are asking about is labeled J in your drawing, Isolated electrical ground, there is no ground symbol in the drawing, it just says it.

Ok now I am getting somewhere. I just missed the words for ground. Thanks Donaldwfc.



And now the one question what is the resonance problem. What would this be?

After understanding the renosance is not AC, I have a theory of maybe the resonance is the charging and discharging of the WFC.  Now bear with me but I seen that voltage will bring on a stressed stretch the H2O bond because the water is a dielectric material. Now with the high voltage across the water reaches to high then water will have a dielectric breakdown episode.  When this happens a short amount of time current does flow across the WFC, but what gets good is because current flow across the WFC it then goes to the second choke coil. This would turn the current into the doulble pulse induced for the first choke coil like Stan said. Any thoughts?

Please pardon the jump in...  saw this as topical

what about this theory?

http://www.alexpetty.com/2010/11/17/meyers-gas-core-transformer/

Yes I have seen that. It is very interesting but their process is combining different versions of Stan Meyer. Stanley Meyer gave clear ideas of his process in his videos and also his Tech brief. Even though the Tech brief dealt with the use of water.... If you watch the New Zealand video he tells you the process on the EPG system. He uses a compound of argon/iron mix to make the magnetic gas. The magnetic gas was created by the VIC on the argon atom to link up with the iron. This just created an impressive power transformer with high efficiency.

With the VIC in actuality you can make any compound by using the VIC to strip of electrons on a atom. This is why the VIC is so important to get down since it starts the trend for every advancement.

as far as i understand the sync pule and the normal vic create the same waveform, the sync pluse came later, maybe as another design configuration for improved performance, but they try to do the same thing, the chokes are wound 1:1, so what ever voltage signal comes out of the secondary and goes into the positive choke, will be mirrored exactly, 1:1, into the negative choke, so it doesn't matter that the negative choke is grounded, while the positive choke is connected to the top of the secondary

if you look at the sync pulse as a next-step advancement over the normal vic, then you'll see that the ground connection is even further back from the cell than before, with more wire in the way, making it harder to leak electrons, and to further restrict electrons as voltage is taken to higher and higher levels, also the vic structure is mirrored even more on the positive and negative side, to emphasize this balance, and make everything as balanced as possible, because now you are not only using the 1:1 chokes, but also the secondary is 1:1 on each side of the center-tap, and remember that the chokes are just part of the secondary, he says the the circuit requires a secondary that may be composed of resonant charging choke segments that vary from zero to 2000 volts or more, and this refers to a few things, including the fact that the voltage ratio comes form the turns ratio, and the increase in turns increases both voltage output and impedance and amp restriction, which results in higher hydrogen gas yield, all keeping in mind that the chokes are building with distributed capacitance and inductance so that when you make then bigger you don't just add more inductance

also remember that as the years went on he reveled more and more about the "process"... while the "systems" just advanced to higher and higher efficiency and performance, it's all the same "process", the goal of every system is the same, the differences in the systems show the advancements, so when he talks about a feature in a new system... it could still be important in the old systems too... he just wasn't telling anyone about the VIC for the first 10 years at all.

Hey Donaldwfc,
Ok I see where you are coming from in you presentation.  But what I do not get is relationship between the secondary to the chokes. Is the secondary part of the choke, I mean I know they are separate but do they work together?  Where did you find this information Donaldwfc that Stan spoke of in you own words that it  requires a secondary that may be composed of resonant charging choke segments that vary from zero to 2000 volts or more).  From what I can tell is that the secondary just provides an isolation and also a voltage increase.  The chokes in series with the WFC resonant to step charges the voltage.  But in order to do that the diode needs to be removed cause voltage need to be transitioned back and for.

Another question is where is the ground for the Simple VIC circuit?

Hey everyone.
Judging on how Stanley Meyer that went on using water for fuel I feel like the most important part of his discovery was the  VIC. Because of VIC it can also be translated to the gas and ambient air processor in turn lead into the hydrogen fracturing process. Actually the VIC is used in about everything.

I have tried to see how voltage will go to inifinity but this only works without the diode. Can someone collaborate on this? What is know is that in the circuit simulation for a series LC circuit the use of an alternating source at resonant frequency will allow voltage go to infinity.

A theory that I have from Stan is that the capacitor needs a negative pulse and also a positive pulse at the same time to split the water molecule. A example would be to start out with +10 volts pulsed and also -10 volts pulsed across the capacitor, which results in a total difference of 20 volts. If this would have the resonant effect for the positive side and also the resonant effect for the negative side, both sides would go to infinity depending on components.

Would this be the same as just starting with a +20 volts on the positive side while the negative side starts out at 0 volts while it never increase? Only the positive side will resonant to infinity?



The Sync-pulse circuit to what I believe clearly demonstrates this. The diagram is below.

Another question did Stan simplify the VIC circuit from the Sync-Pulse or is just the simple VIC representation the beginning circuit that later transitioned to the Sync-pulse??   The VIC diagram is below.

I know this is the same potential difference across the WFC but looked at a different way.
I have read so much on many forums without any luck. 

Hey everyone. I would like to give you an excel sheet that has a ton of formulas for the work of Stanley Meyer or anything you need to solve for electronics. This thing has formulas for inductance, capacitance, frequency, resistance, energy, impedance. RC, RL, CL, and RCL circuit equations, Time Constants, Pressure, Voltage Dynamics, Conversion Factors, Electrical Power equations, Cell efficiency, electrical resonance and some more.  This is a summation of anything you would find in your electronics book and then some. lol I thought it would be nice to just put it all together for you instead of looking on the net or using all different calculators for the same thing. Enjoy!!!

If you have improvements please post here so I or someone can fill in and update it necessary. I do not care what you do with it but it would be nice to post updates so somebody or I can write in revisions in a orderly fashion.

If you do not have a program that will run Microsoft Excel. Open Office will work or any other means so you can edit the data..

Lets see what all of us can do!!!!

version 1.01 updated.
Excel errors fixed.
                                                                                                                                               

Yes, Dynodon can you put me down for one. Please!

Hey. I would like to tell that I found some errors in the excel in the  version 1.00. They were just errors when putting together the formulas in excel, even though I had written them out correctly so anyone can follow and check the thought process on putting it together. Update is at the top of the bar.

If you already downloaded it please download the new updated on. The newest version is 1.01!!!!

Hey everyone. I would like to start off to apologizing on the fact, this subject was already discussed by various members on ionizationx including kinesisfilms that I mention on the waterfuelcell site. Actually the most information I find thus far is in the project section. Somehow I have overlook a great deal of information. So here to conclude I need to do more in depth reading on this site....  Since I have a lot to be catching up to do for the past year...      But it was nice I have a similar ideas I concluded that does match to other members on this forum. Just have to be more mindful on starting new threads.