ionized HHO
Started by unknown · · 59 posts · last reply 11 February 2013
-
#51 · date not recorded
Details
Structure: N2
Name: nitrogen
Author(Year): Huffman(1963)
Temperature: 295K
Wavelength range: 66-79nm
Bibliography:
R.E. Huffman, Y. Tanaka, and J.C. Larrabee, "Absorption coefficients of nitrogen in the 100-580 Å wavelength region," J. Chem. Phys. 39, 910-925 (1963).
Comments:
Absorption maxima
-
#52 · date not recorded
It seems logical to me that if we apply an electric field and stretch out the molecules a higher wavelength would be absorbed. The further an electron is from the protons the lower its ionization energy.
I haven't found any papers on this -
#53 · date not recorded
More info to confuse you....
Mostly concurring with the above answers: what you describe is what happens when an atom absorbs a photon. In fact it's only approximately what happens. Changing the orbit of an electron about a nucleus changes the position/velocity/wavefunction of both the electron and the nucleus, and a transition in one electron changes all the electron-electron interactions so that the wavefunctions of the "spectator" electrons all change too. But those changes are all small, since the electron whose orbit changes has a mass thousands of times smaller than the mass of the nucleus, and since the electron whose orbit changes exerts only a small part of the force on any of the spectator electrons. For most transitions the approximation that only one electron orbit changes is good enough to be useful.
You have a suggestion above that nuclear magnetic resonance is that happens when a nucleus absorbs a photon. I would disagree: nmr is also a process where photons are absorbed and emitted by the entire atom, as a collective object. There the transition in the atom is, in the same sort of approximation, a change in the angles between the spin of the nucleus, the spins of the outermost electrons, and the planes of the electrons' orbits. NMR transitions use low energy (audio- or radio-frequency) photons because the changes involve the magnetic fields of the subatomic particles, whose interactions carry less energy than those involving the electric fields. But because of the way that different sorts of spin mix in quantum mechanics, you don't get to say "aha! I've flipped the spin of a nucleus!" unless you add some extra experimental cleverness.
If you're comfortable with the idea of an electron jumping orbits, there is a useful model for thinking about what happens when a nucleus does absorb a photon. You might remember that the reason for talking about "inner" and "outer" electrons is that electrons obey the exclusion principle. A given electron orbit can only hold two electrons, one with each spin; once the orbit is full, any extra electrons have to go into a higher, less tightly bound orbit. Well, protons and neutrons in the nucleus also obey the exclusion principle, and so their orbits within the nucleus also pile on top of each other in the same way as the orbits of the electrons pile onto the atom. The approximation that protons and neutrons (together, nucleons) are independent particles which can jump between well-defined paths is not so good as the approximation that atomic electrons are independent particles jumping between their well-defined orbitals, but it's good enough to expand into a quantitatively useful statement of what happens when a nucleus absorbs a gamma ray.
Finally there's the possibility of a photon with so much energy that it excites a nucleon directly, instead of just rearranging the nucleons inside of a nucleus. Some other folks have already alluded to this above: the first excited state of the nucleon is a particle called the delta, Δ. You might expect based on the explanations above that the Δ could be described as a proton with one of its three quarks in some sort of an excited orbit. It turns out this is not a good approximation: there's not any "shell model" approximation for the quarks in a nucleon that gives quantitatively useful results. It turns out that it is quantitatively useful to describe a Δ as an unstable "atom" made of a nucleon orbited by a pi meson. So a reasonable hand-waving model of the Δ resonance is that a photon creates a quark-antiquark pair in the vicinity of a proton, over the (brief!) lifetime of the Δ particle the four quarks and one antiquark arrange themselves into a nucleon and a pion, and then the pion falls off.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:14 PM on May 10, 2010
Several things can happen. First, if the energy of the photon is too low, the photon could just scatter off of the proton - this is especially true if it is a "free" proton, which is just an ionized hydrogen atom; however, there isn't a huge amount of H sitting around - it is the most metallic element, and as such, quickly acquires an electron and bonds with something else (often another hydrogen atom) to make a molecule.
Given this, in a theoretical case where you have a free proton, the will just scatter off of the much larger (and more energetic) proton in most cases (if the energy of the electron isn't sufficiently high). Keep in mind, however, that a proton is a hadron, and as such, is made up of 3 quarks - it is not a fundamental particle, like the electron. Given enough energy, you could produce (a very improbable, due to the energy required and the number of vertices in the Feynman diagram) an interaction such that the photon scatters off an electron (or a virtual one), and the electron is energetic enough to produce deep inelastic scattering, which was first used to prove the existence of quarks. You *could* - although it is very unlikely - have the scattered electron hit the proton and produce a neutron and an anti-electron neutrino. A similar process, known as inverse beta decay, occurs *within* some radioactive atoms, but here the proton isn't free, and it "swallows" one of it's own electrons.
For photons interacting with protons in a nucleus, it is possible to change the nucleus's total spin state (which has to do with adding up all the spins in the nucleus using nasty Clebsch-Gordan coefficients and Lie Algebra and is in no way as simple as adding two ups to a down and getting an up spin). But in this case, the photon isn't interacting with a single proton, but rather a collection of protons and neutrons in the nucleus to change its overall energy state. In this respect, photon-nucleus scattering is a little similar to photon/atomic electron scattering in that there is a discrete number of energy levels in the nucleus (none in between), and a photon, if it has the EXACT energy required, can cause a transition from one energy level to another. In most cases, there is no definitive answer to your question, because as with all quantum mechanics, it is probabilistic in nature and you can't know what will happen until the interaction occurs. For the most part, protons do not often interact with protons individually. -
#54 · date not recorded
Im sure alot of ppl here are familar with Herman Anderson but just as things seem to click after much of Stans research some of Hermans research might click for some as well... take for example at 15:30 from his interview
-
#55 · date not recorded
Im sure alot of ppl here are familar with Herman Anderson but just as things seem to click after much of Stans research some of Hermans research might click for some as well... take for example at 15:30 from his interview
Thanks for the great video!
I ll try to download it and to put it here in the Hermans topic..
Steve -
#56 · date not recorded
interesting.. did meyer ever say what kind of ionization did he use? -
#57 · date not recorded
Hey guys Im new to the forum just wanted to say its awesome and lots of good info here. I just had a thought my rig is tube setup with 16th inch gap using auto ign. coils set in anti parallel providing a high and low output HV pulse. Im toying around with the UV led idea got the parts on order but their not here yet what if the secrect is matching the pulse frequency not only of the high voltage field but the UV led and the gas ionizer.Anyone try matching pulse freqs on all three like say the tubes pulsed at say 3 khz then the led's would be at 3khz then so on and so forth. Just a thought
-
#58 ·
Hey guys Im new to the forum just wanted to say its awesome and lots of good info here. I just had a thought my rig is tube setup with 16th inch gap using auto ign. coils set in anti parallel providing a high and low output HV pulse. Im toying around with the UV led idea got the parts on order but their not here yet what if the secrect is matching the pulse frequency not only of the high voltage field but the UV led and the gas ionizer.Anyone try matching pulse freqs on all three like say the tubes pulsed at say 3 khz then the led's would be at 3khz then so on and so forth. Just a thought
Welcome to ionizationx, ntdeamon.
Interesting setup you have.
Pictures and schematics tell more storys then words....
If you want any input we need to know what yr doing..
-
#59 ·
Definitely will post pics of setup when I can wife and I just moved have to unpack and reassemble the setup might make some changes as well looking forward to this spring though. Goal is to run my 88 Integra 1.6l on full hho
Sign in to reply, or ask for an account.