Aussepom

Hi guys
                Oh dear he is not going to play the game any more, what would make him a much more respected man he has admitted the mistake, let him explain the outcome of what happens, if the bord is corrected to the schismatics. When he looked at it, as an electronics engineer, he would know what would happen, he has not posted any scope pics, that one was from some one else.
He chose to take his bat and ball and go home and close the site.
Have you read the last few posts, it is likely to be wiped off, but I will use controller , HEX controller, the make of the chip all I like. How ever I will be looking into using a PIC, wouter is as well. I will be testing three boards now, the unaltered one, that we made, the one that I have and will Modify, and the  Les Banki one.

yaro
   ASK BOB BUT i DO NOT THINK  HE WILL TELL YOU. AND OUR GROUPS  SMALL CELL IS BETTER THAN HIS ANY HOW, MORE OUTPUT AND VERY CLEAN.
YES STEVE THERE IS NOT ONE THAT I CAN FIND EITHER. 

CowboyRX how you doing with yours ?
 

That’s all for now.
aussepom   

Hi to Steve and you all I will be placing this on the waterfuelforall site and the other sites.

IF YOU HAVE ANY OF THE BOARDS PWM3 'E' OR 'F' OR THE NEW ONE 'G' 

Bob and wouter

 I was doing some checks and I have found what I see is a major problem. It is on both the 'E' and the 'F' board.
The circuit looks ok, but it is on the board it's self.
T o explain, R12 goes from the supply rail to pin five then through C5 to pin 8 the trigger input of the second timer. This is ok on the circuit.
Look at the board, on the tracks ( green ones) from the supply rail through R12 IT THEN GOES DIRECTLY TO PIN 8, THROUGH THE CAP TO PIN 5.
R12 and C5 form a timing circuit to pin 8 of the trigger on the second timer. This CANNOT happen the way that the printed circuit board is.

A solution, CUT THE TRACK BETWEEN R12 AND PIN 8 THEN PUT A JUMPER FROM THE R12 TO PIN 5.

Now this board is the one Bob sent to us directly, so how could any of the boards be working 'as per the circuit'. 
 I do not have a copy of the 'G' board so I can not see if it is the same.
If any of you out there have any of these boards please check them.

I found this when I put pins in position to check the pulses on pin 5 and pin 9, there seem to be a problem, so checked  the signal at pin 5 and at pin 8.  then check the board, against the circuit.

Problem is how many more faults are there?

 Why has this not been picked up before now, was it on the earlier boards??

Why is it left up to us to find these faults, I feel for all those people that have paid good money for these boards, including us.
Sorry to go on but this is not good, why should we all be the guinea pigs to sort out these problems.
aussepom

Hi Steve and Cowboyrx,
in the post above wouter

quote
The 101 plate cell together with Bob's  Hex controller is said to produce up to 100lpm at low amps but we still could not verify this. end

Well as you know we here have not either, well here is some of the quotes that may be of interest, you can view them all at the http://waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=531.0
Now whether this will help I do not know, I doubt it, still I will try it again when the board is repaired, this is nearly done, and the 'new separate board' is partly done, one choke wound. I have to have both ready for the test as the 'cell'  is some distance away from me at Ian's. I hope to do some tests here later.

well I would like to here some comments on the 'quotes'
aussepom


From Bob Boyce
I will top-post here due to the length of the quoted text below.

I simply do not have the time to read all of Patrick Kellys document(s) to see what is or is not disclosed. I have written so much over the years, at so many forums, that there is no way that I can tell you where every little bit of my information is published. But one thing is certain... I have disclosed everything related to my resonance drive systems, at least once, if not more, in the various sites that I post at. Patrick Kelly, after asking my permission of course, took it upon himself to attempt a compilation of my information. He did not ask for compensation from you or anyone else for this monumental task. As far as I am concerned, he did an excellent job. From time to time, it is brought to our attention that there is an error or omission, and that is corrected by Patrick, hence the continual updates he makes.

I can tell you this. The cell is not a capacitor, no matter how much you want it to be one. It is a load, one that we dissipate power into, in order to liberate a unique form of hydroxy gas. It may have some capacitance, as many loads do, but that has nothing to do with the sort of resonance that my system employs.

The resonance of the primaries has nothing to do with the frequencies (intervals) used. You are trying to compare sinewave (transverse) resonance at specific frequencies, to compression wave (longitudinal) energy. It cannot match due to the propagation velocity differences between the two types of energy. This is because compression wave energy flows at a much higher speed than that of transverse energy. Please try to ignore your traditional education when attempting to understand this technology. It has nothing to do with transverse electromagnetic waves, and everything to do with the compression waves of potential shock waves as they flow through the bi-metallic skin of the winding conductors. The behavior of the compression waves in the primary windings are directly related to the longitudinal wavelength of the wire vs the pulse widths of applied potential. Therefore, you will quickly discover that excess pulse width is a very bad thing when trying to get the maximum amount of energy gain from input power vs output power. At extremely short pulse widths, I have had input to output gains in excess of 200 X magnification. Tesla himself claimed to have reach 100 X gain in his magnifying transmitter at very low power levels as well. My improvements upon his technology should allow me to hit as much as 300 X magnification, but I have yet to see that much. I am still working at it of course.

The operating voltage of the 100 cell unit is typically in the 150 to 160 volt range. In a low leakage unit, the current SHOULD be about 200 mA, but yours may be higher or lower due to differences in leakage currents. We do NOT want electrolysis to occur, as this will interfere with the resonance. Primary current (all 3 combined) should not exceed 200 mA as well. In my own HexController unit, with very accurate windings, primary current does not exceed 10 mA. Of course the PWM3F or PWM3G will not offer the same performance levels (PWM3G is closest) as the HexController, but they are able to show gains of up to 3 X to 5 X if operated at minimum pulse width. By the way, minimum pulse width is determined by the minimum pulse width of channel 3 (10.7 khz repetition rate), and the other channels are to be set to exactly the same pulse width. Primary windings will require adjustment to match that pulse width. There was a reason I made a relatively simple calculation method for determining the number of turns for the primaries based upon secondary turns and cell idle current. It only takes 1 turn of error to make a big difference in performance, 2 turns of error will result in no joy. It's like tuning an antenna, if the VSWR is too high, the impedance mismatch will destroy the effectiveness of the antenna. This is no different, as it is an antenna array of sorts, just not electromagnetic in nature.

Bob Boyce

Quote from: aussepom on February 27, 2009, 02:50:40 PM
Hi Bob, Mr Rowland and others
Thankyou WouterFuel for creating this thread.
Yes the cell was set up and all the procedures was strictly followed

{  The only time 4 amps is used is during the cleansing phase, during which time the cells are not connected to the toroidal power system. After that, the conditioning phase, which is done for at least several days, running at about 1 amp, and again, the cells are not connected to the toroid power system.}


{ Only when operated during resonance, (after cleanse and conditioning are completed) is the toroidal power system connected. At that time, entraining potential current through the cell stack is in the few hundred milliamps range. } 
 How many hundreds?

Or do we follow Mr Rowland?

{ Now instead of the approx. 2vdc per cell the voltage is set at 1.5vdc per cell. With your 100 cell unit operating at 150vdc the amps will (or should be) be much lower.}

and what ever the current is at that stage would be ok??

None of this type of information is in the D9, that every one seems to take as 'the gospel'

Once the board is repaired and re-setup, will follow like to follow an option

{ The primary current to all three toroid primaries combined is no more than a few hundred milliamps TOTAL! }

Our coil
Toroid  P1 = 996uH,  0.319 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance,  at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 10.7khz Z = 66.96 ohms,
13.8 / 66.96 =  206mA
 
Toroid  P2 = 992uH,  0.323 ohms (DC resistance) 
Impedance,  at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 21.4khz Z = 133.38 ohms
13.8 / 133.38 = 103mA

 Toroid  P3 = 992uH,  0.323 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance,  at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 42.8khz Z = 267.57ohms
13.8 / 267.57 = 51.5mA

Total calculated  milliamps by the three primaries = 360.5mA

Measured  Total current after set up was 320mA this was as far as I was prepared to take it at that stage.
How I see things
So if at any time during the setting of the pulse widths this when any where near 500 to 800mA it was backed off. If you are not aware of this you can during this tuning you can send the Mosfets into 'full on mode', when this happens, the coil is no longer getting pulses just straight DC, and acts accordingly, the 'time on' period will 'see the DC resistance only' so do the sums
Max that could be draw in this 'period of on time' is 13.8 / 0.319 for P1 =  43.2 amps FOR THAT  TIME DURATION THAT PULSE IT IS ON FOR. That for these 510's is too much and before you can blink it is blown.
This is why I have said to the 'learners' put the heavier Mosfets in with the coil open, so that you can get the 'feel' of the setting up procedure. You can then fit the 510's when you are happy with your results   
Why was not something like this stated in the D9, or by you Bob?

Pin five will give you the out put of the oscillator, set this first, on all three 556's with the frequency  pots. R24, R 26, R28
Show pic of this

You can monitor the 'with pulse' on pin nine of the 556, as you then adjust the pot you will see the pulse start to increase.
Show pic of this
You must have done this Bob, Or you Mr Roland, simple thing like this help us all understand.


{ the toroid windings ideally should be wound for opposite spin in the southern hemisphere. This would mean winding CCW going CW, and the 3 phases would be reversed in direction for CW clocking. This is to compensate for the reverse earths magnetic field south of the equator. Having it wound and connected for northern hemisphere will still work, but at a loss of production. }

This has not been mentioned any where to my knowledge, if it was posted some where then please point me to the post.


Mr Rowland quote
{ if you are using 204vdc@4amps to get only 4+ LPM I think you may have some leakage between cells. A well cleansed and conditioned pack (without the high end tronix) should do more LPM.}
 
Well I do not think that there is any leakage, however there is one thing that could account for this, and I will ask Ian to check this before we do the next test.
The 'elite mixture' percentage may be to low, but I am sure he has it correct but I will ask him, if this is lower than Bob used then it would account for the low output at 4amps.
What is the required percentage amount, or the grams per litre, that you used or recommend.?
I just want to double check this with you.
 
Our 'Cell'  calculated at 100hz was 350uf, the measured at 390uf at 35 d C (95F) all our checks are done at this temperature.
The 'Natural resonance' of our series circuit is 102hz. With a total DC resistance at this Rof (resonance) of 1.23ohms.
I have not found that any one has posted  a set of pic 'as it was tuned' similar to me, whether they are correct or not, there is even the part of a 'faulty connection with a Mosfet'.
I would like to compare our toroid  coil information,  that I have posted with the one that you have Bob, the results should be similar. Or if any one else has any info similar would be welcomed.   
I hope to repair the board and re set it up for another test, any information is welcomed that will hell test this project.
sorry I would have like to do shading but not sure how.
aussepom

Hi Dankie,
                     Our idea is to replicate the original one that he supposed to have done all these magical things, but it seems the one that he has posted on the web is NOT the real original set up??, we here in Australia would find it more costly to buy form a 'Bob Boyce outlet, and why should we make him rich over something that from what we can find out NO ONE can really replicate from the information that is given out in the D9, a document that keeps changing. that is the reason that we have built the unit, and this Saturday we will see if what is in the D9 works or not.
aussepom

Hi there Turtle
 You on the right track again mate, yes we had to screw up the power factor, to what is normally not achievable.
 As you know the best you could normally get is about .98, we got to 1, and 1.05 it cost a bit but what is cost was small compared to the gains on the testing that was done, the circulating currents in the circuit were huge, hundreds of amps at 415v.  Well I have been tied up with our 'Bob Boyce replication' we are doing the main test Sat 21st, every thing as been done as per the 'info', but there is a lot I think that is not being told, well we will see on Sat. Ian is a 'Joe Cell' expert and has a new book with his friend in South Australia, 'JMax' so 'unusual power' he is aware of.
I am almost getting ready to start on the 'Oz Injector' again funds are getting better.  All the research and testing around the 'BB Cell' l have been looking at some of my stuff, I have a 'new type of circuit' back to the large circulating currents and high voltage pulsing, it involves out of phase stuff and harmonics.
well that's all for now.
aussepom

Hi steve  and others,
 
 I have been reading some of the stuff here, quite some fire works, see you made this site as well turtle
 well I will read some more, Steve post post any thing you like from the private I sent to you email all of it if you want, that should bring out some talk.
 I see some one agrees with me Bob is leaving some thing out, with the full information any one should be able to replicate the results,  the Alternator one mentioned some where, well that the 'Archie blue, stuff, I like that set up as it closely goes with some of the stuff that i have done in the past.  with three  phases there s a phenomenon that happens it is some thing that in the electrical control, and with stand by  power system's hate and try all ways to get rid of, but here on these project, is the stuff that you want.
there is one particular 'thing ' that happens I will be trying to show this some time, get it right no 'magical extra power required' all explainable.  there is a point where at the particular harmonic, the Voltage will be 85 times that of the fundamental. It is some thing that happens in the industry that is hated, but I think that could be used here.
I am developing a different line, but it is pure power pulses with a lot of current but NOT MUCH FROM THE POWER GRID, this was something that in one of my jobs in the power industry we utilized, we used hundreds of amps, but took very little from the grid, if the power company found out what were doing they wold have tried to stop us. but it was a LEGAL. 
Well that's all for my first post I will try and post some pic later, more to read here first to get the 'feel of this forum'
aussepom   

His 101 cell did not work, and the is a faulty or was with his pulse circuit board,
A group that I was with followed his direction to the letter and had a board from him set to the group, cost the group around $3,000, then they asked me to come and put my instalments and scope to work, that is when I found the flaw  when asked about it he could not give a straight answer. So we challenged him to show us with his own 101 cell and put it on Utube.
Next I was banned from a lot of forums.
Ravis cell was the best and there is some other secrets that I can tell the group about this type of cell.

His 101 cell did not work, and the is a faulty or was with his pulse circuit board,
A group that I was with followed his direction to the letter and had a board from him set to the group, cost the group around $3,000, then they asked me to come and put my instalments and scope to work, that is when I found the flaw  when asked about it he could not give a straight answer. So we challenged him to show us with his own 101 cell and put it on Utube.
Next I was banned from a lot of forums.
Ravis cell was the best and there is some other secrets that I can tell the group about this type of cell.

Hi
well we did not take it past 204v that got 14lts per min at 10amps, it was getting hot quickly, and at the time we did not want to destroy it before trying the PWM3F on it.
If the pwm was going to work then the high voltage is no good. Bob states it has to be at 1.5v per cell, 150v, and that is what we did, also he states at this voltage the current would  be in the in the order of several hundred mA it was mentioned some where  200mA is what he had, and yes we got the same result.
we know that the output of the toroid was working ok, as seen in the photobucket vid with the test circuit.
Now all were looking for was a large increase in the output, this would have certainly been noticed with the few bubbles that we had.
This then would have shown that there was 'something else' there but it did not.
 so we put out the challenge to Bob.  I do not expect him to, if he does show us all how it is done with all the relevant details then I will take my hat off to him.  however I will not hold my breath for it to happen.
aussepom

Hi Cowboyrx
Well buying the big cell was not an option to get it here in one piece and the freight.
Ours was all laser cut, and CNC made any how. It was all done to specs and conditioned etc.
Ian ran is on 'brute force' up to 9amps at 190v and only got 13.5ltrs per min. the cell get very hot at 8amps. 
So I will be asking Ian about the concentration, here is most of our cell we only go to 10% concentration, we use pure stuff, in crystal form, weight it, so much per ltr. I think it is 40grams per ltr for 5%.
 My test cell as Steve may remember, there was a pic some where, it's a round sealed cell but mine is an experimental version.
It has twin inputs, one feed the odd numbers and the other feeds the even, I have holes at the top and at the bottom, so the 22cell unit can be put into two 11's in parallel, if you want. Like this it can give 4.5lts per min at 27v 15amps. Just brute force, it is a convection circulation, I have added a modification, and extra header tank. That is on rainwater, that has been standing for a period of time, at about 8%.
I am winding toroid chokes at the moment, one down two to go. 1.5mm  wire, forgot to count the turns but I used 2 metres, came out to 222uH   0.633ohms,  and impedance Z at 100hz was 0.1535 ohms. Out cell at 35D C is Rof full circuit at 100hz,  the cell is 350uf.

{ 190x15x12=~34LPM }  explain, I got the 190 that volts, the 15 is the amps, what's the 12?
Is that Faraday. And MMW ?
190 x 15 x 12 = 34,200       190 x 15 =  2,850watts. Next ?

ok I will await the reply, I have sent the request in  so Bob should read it soon. 

aussepom

Hi there Coyboyrx, and you Steve
Ok it seem that we all agree that Bob has been holding back, I have at the moment got his attention and I am backing him into a corner to answer some questions.   It is being done for a reason on the warteforall site, wouter is on my side and has contacted me by private email, and I sent him the post that I think caused the problem. All I was doing was to offer advice to three new guys, who were not sure of any thing. I pointed then to Pat Perlies controller, that may have upset him, I also said some thing about 'his precious HEX controller" How with the right tools any one could get hold of them and programme in what ever they like. I did it many years ago BY HAND NO PROGAMMER TO DO IT.
I have got some more info out of him and with the next post that is almost ready it should get him to answer some more questions, he needs to do it as he wants wouter on his side.
I will be repairing the board hopefully this weekend, and I hope to run some more tests and try to may a better vid to explain things.
Ok I will catch you later.
Oh by the way how much concentration do you use ?  with KOH or do you use the Na whatever?
I have only use up to 10 % , the big 100 cell unit that Ian has got I am not sure what he has used.
Any idea what Bob used?
The reason is when we tested it at 4amps, the voltage across the cell was 204VDC, we only got 4.6ltrs per min. now in the last post on the wouter site, there seems some confusion.
 Bob Boyce is saying that "you only need a few hundred milli amps through the cell, but did not say any figure!!  Then the following post a Mr Rowland, says that "to adjust the voltage across the cell to give you 1.5v per cell, so that comes out to 150v, and what ever the current is at that point is ok.
I have an Idea that Bob Boyce goes as high as 25 to 30%, concentration, this is far to high, at 30% you will destroy the SS coating.
Ok bye for now     
aussepom

Hi coyboyrx
ok  thank you for the 'old Bob Boyce OUpower stuff I haven't been on that site for awhile.
aussepom

Hi Cowboyrx,
 Why don't you post the rest of the information that has caused this response and the post that I will be putting in reply, Sorry Steve but you have to see all the information, not one side.
and Steve I will be posting the info that is relevant to the working and setting up of this 101cell, wouter on that site has asked me to continue.  The big problem has been the lack of information that has been left out of the D9, and some of the information in it is not correct as well.
Well Steve I have bought some more parts to 'repair the PWM3F board, and I will be adding some refinements, and doing a retest, and so it will be the last try.
well I will catch up with this later
aussepom  

Hi Steve
                  guess what I have been banned from workingwatercar, must have been the last post I sent in, maybe they do not like is being found out, I expect that Hydroxcy, and the the others will follow, well I don't care it is what we have found out and that's bad luck if they do not like it. photobucket will carry more pic, the reason it was there is that one was a few
megbytes long. I have more to go on there and there will be a continuation here if thats ok with you Steve.
aussepom

Hi there

The  sealed unit 6 cell will do 2 lts per min for 15a at 12volts from one of our members, he has staked unit have a look for your self, the plans are available

[THE CELL is merely a 2 x 6 series cell brute force booster that generates hydroxy at the rate +- 1 lpm for every 10A, 13.8V.
This is NOT a 101 plate cell for resonance purposes.]
http://www.takeaction.com.au/hoh/hohnews/hoh_news_03_08.asp

quoted
[we have been trying to replicate the 101 plate Boyce setup for the past 5 months but no luck yet.
Are doing everything exactly as per Bobs specification and even have a Hex controller....
Best attempt by Watkykjy achieved an increased gas production effect that could have been resonance.
Unfortunately he only achieved this effect once for about 5 seconds but could not maintain or
 replicate afterwards. Also, he could not do any gas measurements during this short period, so we cannot say for sure if it was resonance or not (Watkykjy is my friend and is really doing a good job! So if he cannot get it right, then it does make one think....
Maybe all information needed is not disclosed??)
But we remain positive....and will keep on trying.....]
it seems that some one else  has come to the same conclusions as our group,

posted by me on waterforall
[ Hi
 try looking at these, I have a couple more to post an explanation , the series of pulses were done,  and strung together, now they were taken as the board was set up and a pic taken each time, there was a fault and it does show up then I traced it to a faulty connection on the Mosfet, then continued.
The cell was done by Ian and last Saturday when we tried to do the big test, well the same problems happened again, even when the board was tuned, things happen very quickly,  even though I was aware of the problem and was watching for it. there it went again 'BANG'.
We had every thing in the circuit, but with the board off, we did the test for the flow rate, this was very poor. It was set up as per 'Bobs recommendation of by applying just enough voltage across the cell to get 4 amps DC flowing through the cell. This took 204volts DC. Now get that from you 110AC or even the 120V AC, with out the aid of a step up transformer. So I have 'trouble shooted' the problem, it was as I expected, so I will be making some recommended changes to the board, and this will not 'change the concept of the circuit', although I have found another possible cause to some of the problem in the tuning, that may be able to be overcome. I will give you some free advice take it as it is given, in good faith, if you have a 'F' board or are going to get one, get the HD version, and fit the heavier Mosfets, it can still operate the same way but you do have a better chance to set it up. there is a good side to this as well, if it does not work, use it as a heavy pulse unit.
personally why bother.  before the blow up, we did the volume test, we got 4.6ltrs per min!. so to get to 40ltrs per min there has to be some real 'magical things to happen', I don't think so. but I are going to repair the board, I will be putting the Mosfet on a different 'statalite board', it will also house the 'new chokes' that I think that should be there. then this will be the last try. the unit is NO GOOD FOR PUTTING INTO A VEHICLE, THERE ARE MANY PROBLEMS WITH AN 'OPEN TANK' DESIGN. SO WHY BOTHER WITH AN INVERTER. 

 try this address I will put some more on later. ]
http://s565.photobucket.com/albums/ss94/aussepom/
well I will leave you to thing on this for awhile, there is more.
aussepom

 and yes many years ago we a group i was in checked it and all B SSSSSSSSSSSSSt

Hi thanks electrojolt, I have downloaded quite a few, but no many give you the calculation when you want to alter to to show how the components were calculated.

 I have to look at 250 to 300v HV DC supply, the control can be 15v to 50 no problem.
 when you use transistors or darlington at the higher frequency the are hard to find.

 this is one that I have not seen so I will have a look at it and see what I can do.
there a some but they want $500  for each fet or tranny.
aussepom

Hi try to think in a different way of the AC you think of a sinusoidal wave try not to.

 Look at a DC positive pulse and a negative pulse.
When you use this wave form on an inductor it’s a whole new ball game.
Then use resonant circuits oh you can have some real fun, get a thousand volts from just 50v and just a few amps.  Applied to a cell correctly and lots of fun.
a push pull circuit in and an AC out and with a resonant circuit lot and lots of availianbe amps, then find the frequency.

HHO torch cannot be used to heat up air, to produce steam as in a boiler.
It can weld dissimilar metals jewellers love it
many plate cells use KOH added to the cell not sure the ratio it is smal I can explain why  and that why most of them use SS,   KOH used in the powerders form nast stuff and can be dangerious.

Ok you have been asking about this

The static induction thyristor (SIT, SITh) is a thyristor with a buried gate structure in which the gate electrodes are placed in n-base region. Since they are normally on-state, gate electrodes must be negatively biased to hold off-state. it has low noise, low distortion, high audio frequency power capability. The turn-on and turn-off times are very short, typically 0.25 microseconds.

 Why it was brought out and by the japs was for some goo HIFI amps fast switching push pull stuff
So when you want hi frequency pulses fast switching that is why they want to use them I suspect.

Here is some stuff on them
I will try to post then have not done it here for some time
if you look at the push pull amp and the bridge amp    so the inductor is the speaker and the cap in one of then s the cell I will have to wait until I have posted it to see better and explain  you can get these
brian