Bedini, Meyer, capacitors, batteries and the electret effect
Started by lamare · · 15 posts · last reply 24 December 2009
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#1 ·
I have recently posted quite a bit about the non-permanent electret or dielectric relaxation effect, which I think to be the Rosetta stone in order to understand the technologies of both John Bedini and Stanley Meyer, because the similarities between these technologies are striking, once one digs a bit deeper into the material.
The first thing to look at, is how electrolytic capacitors actually work:
Electrolytic capacitors
One would think that both aluminium foils are to be considered as the capacitor plates and that all in between is the dielectric. However, this is wrong. One of the plates is oxidised, forming a very thin layer of dielectric material, typically about 2 um thick. The other plate should be electrically connected to the electrolyte fluid, which is a conductor. So, in fact, the charge of this other plate is allowed to move right up to the surface of the dielectricum. In other words: because of the electrolyte, we have a plate distanance of about 2 um.The aluminium electrolytic capacitor consists of two foils interleaved with an absorbent paper, and wound tightly into a cylinder. The positive foil, or anode, is made from pure aluminium foil on the surface of which aluminium oxide dielectric has been formed electrolyticallyalso to repair any flaws in the oxide layer when the capacitor is polarised. The function of the aluminium cathode foil is to reduce the series resistance of the capacitor by making contact with the paper over a wide area.
The cathode foil itself has a thin oxide film, and is typically etched to increase the surface area slightly. You may have worked out this gives some capacitance between foil and electrolyte, so that the overall capacitance is that of the anode plus that of the cathode in series. You will be right to think that, but in practice the cathode film is very thin and its capacitance consequently very high.
Now consider Meyer's tubes. These must also be "conditioned", forming a white layer on the tubes:
This sounds strikingly similar to how an electrolytic capacitor is made:
Electrolytic capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The principle of the electrolytic capacitor was discovered in 1886 by Charles Pollak, as part of his research into anodizing of aluminum and other metals. Pollack discovered that due to the thinness of the aluminum oxide layer produced, there was a very high capacitance between the aluminum and the electrolyte solution. A major problem was that most electrolytes tended to dissolve the oxide layer again when the power is removed, but he eventually found that sodium perborate (borax) would allow the layer to be formed and not attack it afterwards. He was granted a patent for the borax-solution aluminum electrolytic capacitor in 1897.
The first application of the technology was in making starting capacitors for single-phase alternating current (AC) motors. Although most electrolytic capacitors are polarized, that is, they can only be operated with direct current (DC), by separately anodizing aluminum plates and then interleaving them in a borax bath, it is possible to make a capacitor that can be used in AC systems.
Nineteenth and early twentieth century electrolytic capacitors bore little resemblance to modern types, their construction being more along the lines of a car battery. The borax electrolyte solution had to be periodically topped up with distilled water, again reminiscent of a lead acid battery.
Interestingly, electrolytic capacitors are operated at voltages very close to the point that the dielectric will break down:
Electrochemistry Encyclopedia -- Electrolytic capacitors
The reason that electrolytic capacitors have such uniform dielectric stress and can operate at such high field strength, within 80% of their breakdown strength
Then, looking at lead-acid batteries, we find further similarities:
Sulfuric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anhydrous H2SO4 is a very polar liquid, having a dielectric constant of around 100. It has a high electrical conductivity, caused by dissociation through protonating itself, a process known as autoprotolysis.
And, remember Bedini/Lindemann saying things about "boiling batteries"?
John Bedini and Peter Lindemann's Medium and Large Motor-Energizer Project
Now what is that boiling actually??At the end of the charge cycle, these 1600 amp-hour batteries are boiling at 31.2 volts!
Practical considerations : BATTERIES AND POWER SYSTEMS
VRLA battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaWith lead-acid cells in particular, overcharging leads to electrolysis of the water ("boiling" the water out of the battery) and shortened life.
Any battery containing water in the electrolyte is subject to the production of hydrogen gas due to electrolysis. This is especially true for overcharged lead-acid cells, but not exclusive to that type. Hydrogen is an extremely flammable gas (especially in the presence of free oxygen created by the same electrolysis process), odorless and colorless. Such batteries pose an explosion threat even under normal operating conditions, and must be treated with respect. The author has been a firsthand witness to a lead-acid battery explosion, where a spark created by the removal of a battery charger (small DC power supply) from an automotive battery ignited hydrogen gas within the battery case, blowing the top off the battery and splashing sulfuric acid everywhere.
At high currents, electrolysis of water occurs, expelling hydrogen and oxygen gas through the battery's valves.
So, basically we have both with Meyer and Bedini technology:
1) forming of thin, polarizable dielectric layers on the plates of either capacitors or battery plates, the latter essentially becoming capacitors, because the dielectric is non-conducting.
2) the use of high voltage "spikes" to form/maintain the polarization of the dielectric, boosting the "dielectric relaxation" effect, essentially turning the dielectricum into a non-permanent electret
3) COP > 1.
4) "boiling" effects, unwanted in Bedini's technology, while basically utilized by Meyer.
All in all, I think both are using the same energy source: the super-polarized dielectricum and that is which is apparantly able to provide excess energy.
This suggests that Meyer's tubes could be very interesting as capacitors, if you don't let them boil and that Bedini's batteries could be very interesting as electrolysis devices, if you let them intentionally boil and make use of the gas.
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#2 ·
Penny drops; efficient home made capacitors
Thanks Lamare,
I had come across this
Borax or Baking Soda Rectifier and the glow.
previously.. But thanks to your investigations above, I now know how to make home made electrolytic capacitors. I won't mind having to top them up occasionally
Borax here we come! -
#3 ·
Another thing I posted about recently, is the question of where the electrons go, when a capacitor is charged:
Even though I used some wrong assumptions there, basically assuming dielectric breakdown was constantly occuring, I was on the right path, I think. If electrolytic capacitors are indeed operated at about 80% of the breakdown voltage, it appears not far-fetched at all to assume that lots of electrons are able to drift trough the dielectric after all, given for example this figure:
This shows "Voltage-current relation before breakdown".
It appears that when operating at 80% of dielectric breakdown, one does get a considerable leakage current.... -
#4 ·
I love your posts Lamare, but, I disagree with the above comment and I think it should be noted to all that this is false. I have experimented quite extensively into this matter and have found that there was never any oxide layer on any of Stan Meyers devices. The devices still exist and have been examined for the oxide layer which is not present. The oxide layer is more of an indication of current leakage, which in turn, terminates the particle oscillation known as "Resonant Action". At best, an oxide layer should tell you that there is too much current passing from one plate to the other, where, there should be very little to none at all. This myth was perpetuated after Ravi had made the statement and the rest of the world took it and ran with it.lamare wrote:
Now consider Meyer's tubes. These must also be "conditioned", forming a white layer on the tubes:
[url]http://www.free-energy-devices.com/fuelcostcutting/D14.pdf[/url
Good Day! -
#5 ·
HairBear wrote:
I love your posts Lamare, but, I disagree with the above comment and I think it should be noted to all that this is false. I have experimented quite extensively into this matter and have found that there was never any oxide layer on any of Stan Meyers devices. The devices still exist and have been examined for the oxide layer which is not present. The oxide layer is more of an indication of current leakage, which in turn, terminates the particle oscillation known as "Resonant Action". At best, an oxide layer should tell you that there is too much current passing from one plate to the other, where, there should be very little to none at all. This myth was perpetuated after Ravi had made the statement and the rest of the world took it and ran with it.
Good Day!
Thanks for your interest in this, HairBear.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm not. I'm just trying to make as much sense as possible from what I read here and there.
I have taken a quick look at your previous post, and noticed this:
HairBear wrote:
Another clue was a statement or rather a question posted by "RAVZZ" at overunity.com concerning an explanation of a glow coming from his cell tubes when viewed in complete darkness. I believe this to be "sonoluminescence" which is an effect of sonochemistry and cavitation. It would also explain the unusually large bubbles coming from his cell tubes. It would be nice to have Dave Lawton confirm this with his setup.
This may point right back to what I'm talking about, just take a look at what Inquorate pointed at:
Borax or Baking Soda Rectifier and the glow.
"How To Observe The Glow From A Borax Or Baking Soda Rectifier."
Also see:The rectifying layer then start to form on the aluminum plates until after a few minutes, the lamp brilliance dies down to nothing. At this time, both aluminum strips will be glowing.
Baking Soda Variable Electrolytic Capacitor.
The aluminum strip shown in the above picture was cut from a piece of aluminum pie plate. I also discovered, with either the borax or baking soda rectifier, that it acted like a large capacitor as well as a rectifier when biased in the reverse direction. I had built a homemade electrolytic capacitor. I decided to do some experimenting and measurements to see what capacitance values could be obtained. I found it easy to get large values up to 100 uf. Since the capacitance is based on a thin film of aluminum oxide that forms on the aluminum plate, the capacitance can be varied by sliding the plate in or out of the baking soda soda solution.
I would also be interested in some further references about wether or not there would be an oxide layer on Meyer's devices. After all, one should remember that the layers should be very thin, like 2 um, in order to form a capacitor with a decent capacitance. And, it is always a question in how far any devices (supposedly?) built by Meyer that are still existing are actually the real thing that worked. -
#6 ·
@h20power,
Thank you very much for your insightful remarks and your interest in this theory.
Yes, this is a very interesting experiment. It is known as Lord Kelvin's water-drop electrostatic generator:h20power wrote:
Here is a simple experiment that sheds some light on what I am talking about and I will go over it for those who need a hand in understanding the concepts taking place in this video:
YouTube - Walter Lewin Makes a Battery out of Cans and Water
High voltage device: Kelvin's Thunderstorm
It shows that water contains charged particles, and that you can split these into two buckets that become charged, so you have a electro-static generator.
Kelvin water dropper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As with other forms of hydroelectric power, the energy here ultimately comes from the gravitational energy released by letting the water drops fall. Most of the energy is wasted as heat when the water drops land in the buckets.I agree that water is a truly remarkable substance and that there are more interesting properties than there seem to be at first glance.Now the properties of water that make this possible are as follows; Water being a polar molecule, water being a dielectric liquid, water being a diamagnetic substance, and the most important of all, the self-ionization of water (also auto ionization of water, and auto dissociation of water) is the chemical reaction in which two water molecules react to produce a hydronium ion (H3O+) and a hydroxide ion (OH−): 2 H2O (l) H3O+ (aq) + OH− (aq).
Now you can repeat this experiment with any liquid on earth and if it doesn't have these characteristics it will not produce lightning. These characteristics are what make life possible, along with some other characteristics like cohesion and adhesion and others I didn't mention, and also it is how lightning storms truly work. Without water we have nothing no life as we know it would exist.
To the average person, water is an ordinary substance often taken for granted. Even though the cause of these unique and unusual properties is explainable at the atomic level, water is truly a remarkable substance.
The self-ionization of water (also auto ionization of water, and auto dissociation of water) is the chemical reaction in which two water molecules react to produce a hydronium ion (H3O+) and a hydroxide ion (OH−): 2 H2O (l) H3O+ (aq) + OH− (aq). Now looking it to this with Meyer technology we see that the EEC takes the electron from the hydroxide ion(OH-) since it is very close to the positive electrode in the water bath of the WFC due to opposites attracts. This is also made possible due to waters being a dielectric liquid being able to store a charge with a relaxation time of є/σ< 10-6 seconds. What this does is give time for water to hold a charge for it(water) to complete the circuit of the EEC. This circuit completion upsets the natural equilibrium of water H3O+ (aq) + OH- -e(EEC) => H3O+ (aq) + O (gas) plus H (gas) -e light(EEC) ==> H2O (aq) + 2H (gas) + O (gas) -e Light(EEC) when the reaction reestablishes equilibrium. This is why it has to be an isolated circuit for if there is a ground or greater negative to complete the circuit of the EEC it will do so and not upset the balance of waters natural equilibrium.
This is the chemical reaction that is taking place inside of the WFC. And it all has to do with the self-ionization property of water.You are probably right and appear to know what you are talking about. However, I can't say much about this, since I haven't looked into this.The water fuel injectors(WFI) do not work this way. It uses some of waters other abilities, diamagnetic, dielectric, cohesion, relaxation time, and polar properties.
As for the WFC, you are probably right about the chemical reaction that takes place. However, the relaxation time, which you say is about 10^-6 seconds, is not really the same thing as "holding charge". It is more like holding an electric field for some time, in this case a very short time.
I can't say anything useful about how this might affect any property or equilibrium of water, but I do know that the electric field is a free energy source and it basically is this source that powers all electric circuits that exist on this entire world. This has been stated over and over by Tom Bearden when he talks about "killing the dipole".
Having said that, it is clear that any trick you can find that can utilize the electric field without killing the dipole that created it, you can extract excess energy from the vacuum. Now it may very well be that there are multiple tricks that work, I don't know and I don't want to rule anything out, especially not concerning the water fuel injectors.
However, when we are talking about the WFC, the idea that this might be extracting power out of the vacuum using the exact same principle that Bedini uses, and which can be explained pretty straightforward using not much more than 19th century principles, has a lot going for it, IMHO.
Now of course I may be wrong, but I may also be right. Either way, it would be important to know, because if I'm right, we now understand the working principle behind these technologies, so we can really start improving these things. -
#7 ·
capacitors
Lamare,lamare wrote:
So, basically we have both with Meyer and Bedini technology:
1) forming of thin, polarizable dielectric layers on the plates of either capacitors or battery plates, the latter essentially becoming capacitors, because the dielectric is non-conducting.
2) the use of high voltage "spikes" to form/maintain the polarization of the dielectric, boosting the "dielectric relaxation" effect, essentially turning the dielectricum into a non-permanent electret
3) COP > 1.
4) "boiling" effects, unwanted in Bedini's technology, while basically utilized by Meyer.
All in all, I think both are using the same energy source: the super-polarized dielectricum and that is which is apparantly able to provide excess energy.
This suggests that Meyer's tubes could be very interesting as capacitors, if you don't let them boil and that Bedini's batteries could be very interesting as electrolysis devices, if you let them intentionally boil and make use of the gas.
I have showed this for years. Imhotep even mentioned it about a cap
that seems to not be able to die because it keeps itself charged up like
an electret - from a conditioning effect. Anyway, there is something to
it.
Listen to 1:10~1:20
YouTube - energeticforum's Channel
That is the second time I posted that video, originally it was removed
with the rest of my vids.
The "boiling" effect isn't necessarily unwanted when charging batteries
with the Bedini method. They will COLD boil, even up to an hour after
the charger is disconnected if using for example, high capacitance low
voltage discharges.
Also, a cap can be charged with pure radiant and no measurable
"electron" current. A charged cap doesn't need to have electrons
piling on plates, etc...
You may find this interesting.
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
See page 26 of the pdf.
Batteries are water electrolysis cells. A water molecule is either
created or destroyed depending on if it is powering or being charged
and that what all the complicated battery chemistry comes down to.
And the concentric tubes ARE capacitors.
I have seen batteries charged with radiant that get a white coating
on the plates...batteries with clear see through walls so you can see
the liquid and plates inside. Just like the conditioning that has been
observed on many of the Meyer experiments. This is the observation
I brought to the table a long time ago. -
#8 ·
Re imhotep's self charging capacitor and proposing a test
I've got one of those, it goes up to 15 to 18v after a couple of days. It's 10000 uF.
I worked out how to easily test the theory re conditioned electrolytic capacitors showing the Electret effect;
Conditioned electrolytic capacitor Electret effect test - Vox
It should show a net gain in joules if the caps are conditioned and the pulse width and frequency is correct for the air core coil, hopefully more than the capacitor losses, or we'll have to measure the losses and add those joules to the final score.
Capacitor Energy and Time Constant Calculator
Of course, you may want to only pulse the coil while the top drive capacitor is relatively full, so you'd want a higher capacitance there.
I've got that image as my phone's background to remind me to do the test but I figured I'd put it out there.
Love and light -
#9 ·
Meyer hho
HairBear,HairBear wrote:
I have experimented quite extensively into this matter and have found that there was never any oxide layer on any of Stan Meyers devices. The devices still exist and have been examined for the oxide layer which is not present. The oxide layer is more of an indication of current leakage, which in turn, terminates the particle oscillation known as "Resonant Action". At best, an oxide layer should tell you that there is too much current passing from one plate to the other, where, there should be very little to none at all. This myth was perpetuated after Ravi had made the statement and the rest of the world took it and ran with it.
Good Day!
I'm not disputing that Meyers had no coating on his tubes.
First of all, Ravi got this conditioning idea and process from me and then
developed his own conditioning regimen. You can ask him youself.
And, it is not a myth, which implies it has been claimed that Meyer's
tubes did have a white powder coating. It must be kept in the proper
context. Myself or Ravi never claimed Meyer had this coating.
I may have speculated on that but have never claimed that
as I have never personally examined Meyer's tubes. But, apparently
both Ravi and I have seen a significant increase in gas production WITH
the coating for less input.
I originally posted this around 5 years ago, this is the 2nd or 3rd time I
posted it after it kept getting deleted:
YouTube - Stan Meyer concentric tube test
Both the below vids are the 2nd or 3rd time I had to post them as well.
YouTube - Water Fuel Cell Conditioning
If I put a choke in series, the of course I can get higher voltaged
and lower current. I have built several variations of the vic for
straight up running the cells to produce gas and not for conditioning,
but haven't really posted anything on that. Anyway, I was the first
to point out the similarity of Meyer's circuits and Bedini's circuits way
back on icubenetwork before it got hacked and shut down.
YouTube - energeticforum's Channel
What I personally observed a long time ago was my inner tubes started
to get a pure white powder coating on them AND as this conditioning
process went on, which is a conditioning process even if
Meyer didn't have that same coating, the gas volume INCREASED consistently
as the white powder coating became more evenly spread across the
entire surface. This idea was based on actual experimental empirical
evidence.
So, it is not a myth that it allows for higher voltage with less current
with the benefit of increased gas production for less energy. It is a fact.
Again, I'm not disputing you about Meyer having no coating.
But if anyone is saying that there is a myth stating Meyer had this
coating...again, it was never claimed and my discovery has been taken
out of context severely.
It is a dielectric coating, restricts current and allows high electrostatic
pressure to be built up - as it does act as a capacitor. If there is no
coating and even if the top ridge of the tubes are bare, the tubes are
basically short circuited. I was able to measure up to hundreds of volts
in that tube, while most reports I saw were lucky to measure over 2
volts...2 volts because it was short circuited.
This coating I have seen in batteries, and it helps to restrict current while
allowing more voltage potential.
Obviously in the Meyer circuit the primary current restriction should be
the bifilar chokes, which I believe should be wired em coupled and not
in normal series.
It is also possible that Meyer's tubes have a thin layer of corona dope
or similar to restrict current, while being invisible. If there is no coating,
it is also possible only distilled water was used and no minerals were
available - even though Meyer apparently used both distilled and
tap water.
I have produced gas with distilled water, which indicates electrostatic
separation and not current electrolysis. I didn't use medically grade
triple distilled, just single distilled but there was still no conductivity.
I built the Tay Hee Han cell a while back and I used super corona
dope as the coating on the plates, which with the thickness I used can
hold up to 80,000 volts of electrostatic pressure and that is without
baking the dope, otherwise it would be closer to 100,000 volts.
Did you personally place Meyer's tubes in your hand and examine them
with your own eyes? You said you experimented quite extensively in
this area and found that..implying that you have first hand knowledge
of Meyer's tubes.
The entire Meyer hho world of experimenters should be completely aware
that the dune buggy still exists as well as other hardware. That has been
discussed quite a bit as well. Photos have been produced of the VIC, etc...
and I think some of that is posted in this forum or a couple others.
What is your definition of "particle oscillations"?
This coating in no way inhibits resonance for example in the batteries
that have developed this coating. -
#10 ·
how to use electret cap
Electret capacitor...
Here is the basic thing to try with a capacitor that has been conditioned
and seems to keep it's voltage up even after shorted.
Charge another cap with it because you want that electret cap to charge
a cap or something with SUPER LOW IMPEDANCE. The cap will get charged
with the least amount of impact on the electret cap.
ELECTRET CAP > CHARGE OTHER CAP > DISCHARGE OTHER CAP TO BATTERY > repeat
So you can basically take a regular cap and switch it back and forth
between the electret cap and the battery back and forth. -
#11 ·
Meyer
H2O, I have only done very limited tests with the EEC. A while back I kept
point this out but just about everyone tried to say it only applied to the
upper stages where the gas could go to get more unbalanced. Anyway,
I had limited results. And yes, the power pulse and EEC are out of phase.
I thought it was common sense that it should work in the water bath since
in any kind of "electron cascade" environment, there would be a surplus
negative charge that should be able to be used to power a load.
I am aware that the water bath is the ground and that it has been right
there in Meyer's diagrams from the beginning. And I have used isolated
windings on the secondary side with the chokes. I have even run the cell
with variations of the Bedini coils.
With the slots in the tube, I think a distinction should be made. Some
appear to be cut out for tuning but in some diagrams, it appears very
clearly they are ports to inject red LED light. So, his diagrams show
two different kind of "slots".
Anyway, your explanation in that post is how I see Meyer's circuit working
as well. -
#12 ·
I notice that you use 1 mm gap between tube. Have you ever experiencing white coating blob ?Aaron wrote:
But, apparently
both Ravi and I have seen a significant increase in gas production WITH
the coating for less input.
I originally posted this around 5 years ago, this is the 2nd or 3rd time I
posted it after it kept getting deleted:
YouTube - Stan Meyer concentric tube test
Since this is off topic, I create another thread to answer here:
-
#13 ·
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#14 ·
Meyer
I remember now about that dielectric layer and the particle oscillationHairBear wrote:
I would even guess that the added resistance from the oxide layer acts very close to a certain application Meyer stated in one of his patents. The description shows he added a resistive material between the cathode and ground.
"Particle oscillation" was the term used by Stan to describe the "Resonant Action" that occurs between the plates when the circuit was tuned to the dielectric/water. quote...
Another reason I make the claim that an oxide layer is not present on Stan's cells, is my own replication. I can produce 15psi with 10 watts in a few minutes on a fresh first run. I have yet to see an oxide layer like the Ravi/Lawton version that I had built previously. Why condition your tubes when you don't have too? Besides, if there is no current leakage to begin with, you won't ever get an oxide layer.
description...it has been a couple years since I read any of Meyer's
papers.
With my oxide layer, I had no choice. No matter what tap water I used,
it happened 100% of the time. I may just have a high calcium or magnesium
mineral content in my local water. It comes from the spokane aquafer.
How it increases output? I thought by simply allowing a higher electrostatic
voltage tugawar on the water molecules.
I agree to a point about if there is no current leakage but even with pure
electrostatic pressure, it can move ionic minerals without current to my
understanding.
What schematic are you using? Sounds like you're getting good results.
Have you seen Meyer's very first patent? Magnetic coils around everything.
It appears he was making a form of magnetic gas - magnetically bonded
molecules instead of "covalent". It is a canadian patent..have you seen it
and what do you think? -
#15 ·
@Aaron
I would agree, about 15 years ago when I was into the HHO technologies I found the white coating on the reactor tubes did increase efficiency. At that time there were only a few references to this effect in some journals I read dating back to the 1940's so this effect is definately not new by any means. My experience was a little different than yours as I was not interested in gas production persay but increased efficiency. It was interesting to note that in a properly tuned high self-inductance circuit the coating produced capacitive effects in which a great deal of the input energy could be recovered while retaining moderate gas production.What I personally observed a long time ago was my inner tubes started to get a pure white powder coating on them AND as this conditioning
process went on, which is a conditioning process even if
Meyer didn't have that same coating, the gas volume INCREASED consistently
as the white powder coating became more evenly spread across the
entire surface. This idea was based on actual experimental empirical
evidence.
Regards
AC
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