Don Gabel on finding the dune buggy (9-24-2008)

Don Gabel on finding Stan Meyer's dune buggy (24 September 2008)

JR = James Robey
DG = Don Gabel

Transcribed from the recording by machine (OpenAI Whisper, turbo model), with the speakers told apart by machine (pyannote speaker diarisation) and read through for obvious faults, but not checked word by word against the audio. Time marks in italics are minutes into the recording. The station's advertisements at the head and tail of the file are left out. An e-mail address read out on air is not reproduced.

JR: (0:30) Hello, and welcome to a September 24, 2008 segment from the Kentucky Water Fuel Museum. With us this afternoon is Don Gable from Erie, Pennsylvania. Don, are you with us? Yes, I am. Welcome to the program. Thank you. Okay, you have the unique distinction of being a person who has gone in search of Stan Meyer's famous water fuel cell-powered dune buggy, and you've succeeded in finding it, and you've even begun acting as a representative of the man who presently holds Meyer's dune buggy, as well as other files and computers and devices, water fuel cells, and you have attempted to direct interested persons to this individual who does not wish to be named. And so we'd like to talk about how this all came about and what you and another acquaintance saw when you went to inspect these items.

DG: Okay, well, back in the beginning of the year, I come across the article in the Columbus Dispatch by that Dean Narcisco talking about going and seeing the buggy, and I'm thinking, geez, it's still in the area. So I set out to see if I couldn't find it. So I started, first place I tried was calling the Columbus Dispatch and get a hold of this dean, and I was unable to contact him at all. I sent him emails, no returns. So I just kept watching the fuel cell groups on the net. And then I started seeing these guys come in there saying they were from the Grove City area or close to Grove City. So I started contacting some of these people and finding out if they knew anything. I tried for probably two or three months of talking with people through emails and on the phone that I came across a guy by the name of Steve. And him and I started talking, and we put our thoughts together.

And since he lived in that area, he started searching for names that I threw at him. And one thing led to another. And I started making phone calls and come across the guy who was just looking for information. And he's like, well, I've got everything. So I talked with him for a good month trying to just let me come down and see everything. Well, he was reluctant to do it at the time because at the time I didn't know, but he was in negotiations with a company that was looking to purchase it.

JR: Oh, really?

DG: So he was reluctant to let me come see anything in fear it might jeopardize his negotiations. So I talked with him for like a month until he finally said that he was done waiting on this group to come up with the funds they were offering. So we came up with that August 16th deadline. And at that point is when I started putting it on the groups, letting people know that I found this thing and that it's available for sale.

JR: Okay, so he allowed you and this Steve to come down and actually look the stuff over, huh?

DG: Yeah, I was working with the owner for a good month, you know, fielding calls and messages, passing them on to him. And then out of the blue he says one day, he says, well, he says, you know, for all your help, he says, you can come down and I'll show you the stuff. Well, that's pretty neat, isn't it? Yeah, he was more interested, you know, if you had the money and can show that you have money in your series, then he would let anybody come see him. So if you have money and want to put in an offer, he will let you see the stuff. I mean, I've already signed a few people to him. They've went and saw the stuff. So I'm not the only one that's seen it so far.

JR: Okay. But why don't we get a recounting of what happened the day that you went to see it. So we have the Columbus Dispatch article from last summer where Dean Narciso apparently went to the home of Charlie Holbrook. Is that the one mentioned in the article?

DG: Yeah, that's who I believe he went and saw. But I never got a hold and confirmed that.

JR: And Mr. Holbrook died earlier this year?

DG: Yeah, he died in the end of January. He was 73.

JR: Okay. Now, I interviewed Mr. Holbrook and his wife back in the summer of 2005. And we had about a four-hour conversation. And at one point during the conversation, he started to get up implying that he had something to show us. My wife and I were sitting in his living room. This was a Saturday evening, middle of summer. And no sooner did he begin to get up that he changed his mind and said, nah. And I pressed him to find out what it was he was about to show us, but he didn't want to. It sounds from the Columbus Dispatch article, like Dean Narciso, the columnist who wrote the article, the conditions for him seeing it and then mentioning it in the article, it's pretty obvious that it was a hushed kind of thing.

DG: Right.

JR: (5:30) He mentions Mr. Holbrook in the article, but he doesn't connect the viewing of the dune buggy with Mr. Holbrook's home or anything.

DG: Yeah. Well, that would probably have been, well, when Ewan talked to Charlie, that's probably when Charlie originally came into custody of the equipment. And it's moved on since his death. He left it to somebody else before he died. And so he no longer has it. But originally it was tied up in court for a good five years before it was finally granted to the widow. And then she had it for a few years up until the point she died. And then she had left it off to Charlie, and then Charlie left it off to somebody else. So it's changed hands a few times now.

JR: Yeah, but it's always stayed in the Columbus area.

DG: Yeah, it's still down in the Columbus area right now.

JR: And as far as I know, that vehicle has never left Ohio.

DG: No, it hasn't. It's been in that same area ever since.

JR: No, there are rumors that you'll see occasionally on the Internet. You'll see a story that it was driven from L.A. to New York or something.

DG: Oh, no, that was a – people thought he drove it. And in his one video on the net, it says that we calculate that it would take 22 gallons of water to drive it from the East Coast to the West Coast. Yes. He never drove it. He said he calculated.

JR: Right, and then at one point there was some kind of alternative energy vehicle competition in Australia, and he had proposed taking it down there. But the competition involved the use of solar panels or something. And, of course, his buggy didn't run on solar panels.

DG: Right.

JR: Now, it could have been made to run on solar panels. The water fuel cell could have used solar panels as the source of energy.

DG: Right, and it runs off electricity.

JR: But I think I have in my possession a newspaper article from Grove City wherein he discusses this with the newspaper reporter back when this article was written, maybe 20 years ago or so. They were thinking of actually entering it into this competition that was going to cross Australia.

DG: Could that ever have to be there? I've been researching this stuff for two years, and then when I saw that article in the Columbus Dispatch, I was like, wow, it's still around. Let's see if I can't find or at least find some more information. I was just trying to find people in that area that might have some of the literature, the newsletters and stuff that Stan passed out all those years. I figured somebody down in that area might have something. So I was contacting people looking for any kind of information and eventually hoping to find the buggy and equipment just to go down and look at it and see if I can gain some more knowledge from what I see.

JR: And how much stuff did you actually come up with in your quest?

DG: He showed me everything he has.

JR: Well, I'm not talking about that. We'll get to that in a minute. I'm talking about looking for literature, brochures, and this, that, and the other.

DG: Did people come forward with that kind of stuff? No, I never did find anything like that. I just ended up finding the whole kit and caboodle at once. I never did get that far. People I would contact, they wouldn't reply, and I had a hard time communicating back and forth with people. I asked them, can you grab a phone book and look for this name? And people just wouldn't do that for me. It was odd. Just grab a phone book. And then after my friend Steve and I started looking and I made a call, I just called information for a name and got it, called the guy up and was like, I got it. And I called Steve back and told him. He grabs a phone book, looks in the phone book, yep, there's the guy's name. Isn't that interesting?

JR: You know, I rounded up some information on Meyer from unlikely places. For instance, just this past week, I was talking to a gentleman who owns an electric motor shop here in Lexington, Kentucky. And he takes out his wallet and he pulls out a business card from his wallet. And wouldn't you know, it's Charlie Holbrook's business card for the water fuel cell. And he's been carrying it in his wallet for 15 years. When he actually drove up to Columbus or Grove City and went to a demonstration, one of Meyer's investor demonstrations.

DG: Yeah, well, that's where my friend Steve actually met Charlie and Stan himself. He used to work at the place where they would hold the meetings. He was in charge of setting up the room. And so he had actually met Charlie and Stan like 20 years ago.

JR: Yeah, was this at a hotel?

DG: It was kind of like one of them halls you would rent for, you know, many kind of banquets, weddings. Yeah, okay. It was some type of hall that they were renting. Once a month they would rent this and it was a fundraising thing. They were trying to drive up some funds. And he used to work for that hall there and set up the rooms and he'd come in and do the demonstration. So he got to see the cell in operation, you know, 20 years ago, the demo.

JR: (10:44) Very interesting. Well, this gentleman drove the three hours from Lexington up to the Grove City area. And he said that the dune bucking was actually driven during this demonstration. And he calculated it was about 15 years ago. I'm not sure how accurate that investment is.

DG: Yeah.

JR: But he said that the dune buggy wasn't running very well. He said a dog could outrun it.

DG: Oh, yeah. That was always a problem is producing enough gas on demand to feed the motor.

JR: Oh, really? Wasn't that a problem?

DG: I had heard someone had told me that Bob Boyce had went up and seen the thing. And he claimed that there was six of those demo cells in a container that was on the buggy. He needed that many to make it run off of the demo cell. But, again, the demo cell is not the VIC-type system. The demo cells literally just ran off of the alternator. The modified alternator with the electric motor is what run the demo cell. It wasn't the voltage intensifier circuit. The voltage intensifier circuit came after that. It was a completely different unit. The demo cell doesn't use a VIC. It just uses the alternator. Really? So there's no resonant-type driver involved? Not on the demo unit. No. The resonant circuit came with the VIC, and then that was a totally different cell. It uses a smaller cell. There's some pictures on the Internet of these things.

There's like three of them bolted together with that hydrogen gas gun that I posted a picture of. The owner had sent me a picture of the hydrogen gas gun. But there's pictures of it from one of his seminars that shows three water fuel cells bolted together, one on top of each other, and then two other units, one on the hydrogen gas gun. They're all bolted in a stack probably about three to four feet high. Those little things on the bottom, the white units, are about four or five inches in diameter, five, six inches tall. Those are the water fuel cells that run off the voltage intensifier circuit. It's a totally different system.

JR: Okay. Now, what this gentleman here, Jim, described in my interview with him last week was a demo cell that involved two plates, or ribbons, I guess, that were moved closer together and farther apart to demonstrate the production of gas. Are you familiar with that?

DG: Yeah. I seen that one. He had that one there also.

JR: And what are those ribbons made of? He thought they were made of copper. Is that true, or is that just this kind of flavor?

DG: Those plates are stainless steel, just like the tubular ray. That was his very first demo cell. He was using that to vary the capacitance of the cell to find the best spacing and stuff like that. But that one came prior to the tubular ray, and then the tubular ray is what he shows everybody after that. But I got to see both of those at this guy's house.

JR: Okay. So maybe we can describe. So the guy lets you into his home, and then what does he have, this stuff stored in his garage or something?

DG: No, he had some of it in his house, and then the rest of it was in storage. We had to drive a couple miles to go to the storage facility where he had the bulk of the material. What had happened was one of the previous owners had removed some of the main components off of the vehicle, and that's what he had at his home. They had the distributor, the water pump, the water fuel injectors, a couple other units that were removed. The idea was if someone was to ever steal the buggy, they would not be able to get it to work without these components. But he has all the components that goes back on the buggy.

JR: Okay, so is he implying then that nothing is missing from the things that Meyer had when he died, that those things, none of them have been spirited away or anything?

DG: He's not real familiar with everything that goes on there, but everything that I have off of this, if you've seen the international independent test and evaluation thing that's out there, it's like 200 and some pages long. It has pictures of all the water fuel injector systems, shows all the injectors, the distributor, all the components. Well, everything in those pictures was on the buggy or in his house. So everything was there if you could put it back together.

JR: Now, was there any explanation given by him as to what happened at the time of Meyer's death with these things? Apparently, from what I had heard from various sources, is that some things were sort of carried off by different people, possibly for the reason, as you mentioned, so that they wouldn't be stolen by someone else.

DG: Yeah, I was going to say from what this owner says is that after Stan's death, they pretty much came in and locked everything down. No one was allowed near it. He's not even sure if it ever left Stan's place where he had it. I think he thinks that it was all locked down and no one was allowed in there. Now, when you say they, who are we referring to? The courts. See, when Stan died, he didn't have a will, so all the investors were looking to get their hands on this stuff. Sure. So he got tied up in the courts. Right. So the courts came in and put everything under lock and key. Now, in that case, what became of the investors' interest in this stuff?

JR: (16:05) Did it disappear?

DG: I guess that was dealt with in the lawsuit or the court hearings. Because I think that's why the widow had to pay so much to acquire everything. They didn't just give it back to her. She really had to pay for the stuff. And I think if people didn't come in, you know, if you don't show up for a court hearing on a claim like that, then like a bankruptcy, you know, you're not going to get anything out of it. So he's not real sure. He did show me the court documents. He pulled out one of the books. He showed me the case where the guy had sued him. I mean, that thing was like three inches thick. It was all the paperwork from the court hearings. And then he had all the other stuff from Stan. But, I mean, there's just...

JR: Of course, this is while Meyer was alive, he was sued. But there hasn't been any legal action taken by any of the investors in recent months or years.

DG: No, I think that was all washed out in the initial thing, that five years it took for them to decide where to put it. Yeah. I'll give you an example.

JR: And this is an example of how information about Meyer's company and his promotion of his technology and whatnot comes from strange sources. There's a fellow living in Nicholsville, which is about 10 miles south of Lexington, not quite 10 miles. And he was one of the investors. And he gave me, as the owner of the Kentucky Water Fuel Museum, through a friend of his, he passed on to me his receipt that Meyer gave him for $5,000 of investment into his company. And he also had a couple of brochures from the company describing the progress and what the plans were for building an airstrip. It actually had a drawing showing quite a few military airplanes, quite a big yard filled with large aircraft, and so these planes could be flown in, and I guess retrofitted with water fuel cell power units.

DG: Right, yeah, that would have been the injector technology converted to injectors. That's what was on the buggy when Stan died, the injector technology.

JR: Okay, that's what we want to get to next now. Yeah. So you're saying that originally when the first Meyer newscast video, and perhaps there was only one newscast video made showing him driving a dune buggy down the road, right? Right. That was from 1984 or 5? 85, I believe. Okay. And there was never another newscast done showing him driving the buggy, right? Not that I've seen. Okay. At that time, the device that was in use that powered the vehicle was a rather large, sort of an ice chest-sized box, right?

DG: Yeah, there looked like a big cylinder on the back of the buggy, and I think that's where people are saying that there was six of those demo cells inside that unit. The one I've seen looked like a big, round tank on there, almost like a propane tank, but big, you know. It looked more like a cylinder to me. But someone thinks that there was, I guess Bob Boyce had said that he'd seen it and that there was six cells.

JR: You know, I've never heard Bob Boyce say anything about Stan Meyer's work.

DG: How do you think you're commenting on it? This comes from a friend I've been talking to in Colorado. He called me about this stuff, and we've been talking ever since. So we're helping each other with our projects. But he had said that he'd talked to Bob Boyce and Dave Lawton and Ravi and all those guys. He personally knows them all and talks to them, and he said that Bob had mentioned that he'd went up and seen this thing years ago.

JR: Isn't that interesting? Bob Boyce never mentioned that type of thing to me. When I asked him about Meyer's work, he never...

DG: But that wasn't the first time I heard... Yeah. It wasn't the first time I heard someone say that there was more than one demo cell on there. But, yeah, in the first original one, you can actually see the alternator with the electric motor on the left side of the buggy because that's what he was using at the time to restrict amps and allow voltage to take over.

JR: You mean he was running an electric motor on the vehicle?

DG: Yeah. Yeah, there was a... You can see it, and if you look at the video, you can actually see the alternator electric motor on the left rear corner of the buggy.

JR: So what, was he powering the electric motor from an inverter? Probably.

DG: Being used from the vehicle? Yeah, it was probably run off of the electrical system on the buggy.

JR: Isn't that interesting? And are we talking about...

DG: Yeah, that was his early attempt at restricting amps. The windings in the alternator act like your choke coils, and it restricts amps while it allows voltage to go through.

JR: Now, are we talking about a modified alternator?

DG: Yeah, it's just a deregulated alternator with three of the diodes removed, and then the armature is powered with... He was using an inverter to... Well, he was running... Yeah, an inverter with a AC, a variac, a variable AC controller, to apply... He used a bridge rectifier to change it from AC to DC, and he was applying a DC voltage to the armature of the alternator, and then the output was run through three diodes to give it a unipolar pulse, and then that was run right to the cell.

JR: (21:28) And so is that basically all that's needed to do a replication of Meyer's early work?

DG: Of the demo cell, yes. It's in that International Test and Evaluation Report that's on the Internet right now. Now, who was that report prepared by? It was... I don't have it copied. It's such a big file. Was that Meyer's work, or was that an independent... It was an independent study done. You can get the file right off of the waterfuelcell.org. I believe it's on their website. But it's an 88-meg download, so it takes a while to download, even with FAST. But in there, it's a wealth of information, and it gives you a picture of that black control panel that you see on the video when he flips on the power and he turns the knob. That box is shown in there with the lid removed, so you can see it's a bad photocopy.

But there's some simple wiring schematics that show how the thing is actually wired, and there's nothing in there except for the variable controller with a bridge rectifier, and it goes to your armature on the alternator to apply voltage to it to put your generated voltage out.

JR: Very interesting.

DG: It goes right to the demo cell. I've got an alternator modified right now that I'll be testing as soon as I get it mounted.

JR: And this is basically what Dave Lawton's replication consists of?

DG: Yeah, Dave Lawton has done pretty much the exact same thing with the alternator conversion, but he's using a PWM circuit to control the alternator, but Stan didn't do that. Stan just run a straight voltage into it, a few volts in, and he was running it like 12.5 volts out or so. On the one video, he was talking only about like 5 point-some volts as all the cell was running at. If you've seen the one where he had the buggy running for the first time in the driveway with the demo cell sitting on the ground.

JR: Where they're sort of hooting and hollering and celebrating?

DG: Yeah, that was supposedly the first time the engine ever ran on the hydroxy gas.

JR: And that's Stan Meyer and Charlie Holbrook.

DG: Yeah, that was Charlie Holbrook.

JR: Yeah. Yeah, Charlie is an interesting fellow. Apparently he was a skeptic who became a believer. He said that his initial reason for approaching Meyer was to disprove what he was doing, to show that it wasn't valid.

DG: Yeah, a lot of people get to see the light after they do something like that. A lot of non-believers start believing after they start researching it.

JR: Yeah, and recently someone criticized me for using the word believer and non-believer. They said, this is science. Why are you using that word? Well, the fact is that mainstream science denies that this is possible.

DG: Yeah, they say you can't do it.

JR: And so, I mean, you either believe something is true or you don't. If you believe it's true, you're a believer.

DG: And Stan was such a paranoid person that he was very reluctant to allow anybody to see anything major or, you know, to hook any device to it to verify his findings. He was just so paranoid that people were going to steal his ideas. So that's, I mean, he burned a lot of people in that respect because he wouldn't allow them to test anything. So that's why you either got to believe him or not believe him.

JR: Well, what do you think that he should have done differently? If you were Stan Meyer and knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently during the 80s and 90s? Of course, he died in 98, right?

DG: Yeah, in 1998.

JR: What would you have done differently from your vantage point now?

DG: I would have probably allowed some independent people to do the test, you know, but make them sign a non-disclosure agreement that's, you know, that's ironclad. If he would have just showed people a little more and given them a little more of what was going on, then he wouldn't have had such a hard time, I don't believe.

JR: Yeah. For instance, did he ever do a liters per minute test? Did he ever verify how many liters per minute he was producing?

DG: Yeah, in that independent test and review thing, it shows what that demo cell would put out. I've got it printed out right here. Let me find it real quick. But it gives you all the flows. It was like 46,600 cc's per hour per tube with an input of only so many. Okay, here it is. I've got papers everywhere. Have you ever translated that to liters per minute? Yeah, it works out to the whole cell would produce about seven liters a minute at 12 and a half volts input.

JR: And so you're saying,

DG: how many amps? Okay, that works. Well, he's saying that electrical watts per tube is 12.5 volts at 4.4 amps. Okay. So 4.4 times 9.

JR: So he's making seven liters of gas at four?

DG: It was like 40 amps, 12 and a half volts, 40 amps, and it was producing seven liters a minute.

JR: (26:31) Oh, using 40 amps of current?

DG: Well, yeah. Let's see. His power supply was 12 and a half volts DC at 40 amps, 500 watts total. So 4.4 amps times 9. That was per tube. Like I say, this isn't the VIC. This is just the old major things. So it was 40 amps total for the nine tubes, but it was producing one of the 420,000 cc's per hour. But it works out to right around seven liters a minute.

JR: And you're saying that that multiplied by six was running the Volkswagen four-cylinder, maybe 1,600 cc engine.

DG: That's what one guy had told me that Bob Boyce had told him. Yeah. Somebody said that there was more than one of those cells, but the owner only has one and it's the one I've seen in the videos.

JR: Yeah. And is an alternator capable of powering six of them?

DG: Oh, yeah. 40 amps per cell? Yeah, an alternator. An alternator, like my car, has a 130-amp alternator from the factory. So 40 amps out of an alternator is no big deal.

JR: Well, I'm talking about

DG: multiple cells then. Oh, multiple cells, yeah. Well, let's say this was just a test. This is just part of the research off the test.

JR: Yeah, that's interesting.

DG: Yeah, I mean, it would take quite a bit, but you've got to remember that seven liters a minute is enough to probably allow the buggy just to idle. I mean, it needs so much to run down the road and how he was controlling them, I really don't know.

JR: But are we talking about the same thing that's seen in that British broadcast It Runs on Water when they say that he does this cold? Now, the 40 amps, to me, has to translate into heat. That doesn't sound like a cold. Yeah, that's... So we're talking about a different...

DG: Yeah, it all depends on, you know, what kind of power he was putting through it, you know, when he was showing the thing. But this is, like I say, just off the test. It gives all the specs on the test and the flows and the voltages and the watts you use and it compares it to the standard electrolysis process. It's all in that file. Very interesting.

JR: Well, why don't we move on to his later work that we've considered the early cells. What about the use of the... What everyone really is most interested in is the injector plugs. And you've actually held these in your hand?

DG: Yeah, yeah. He pulled them out of a box. They were wrapped up in paper towels and he pulled them out and handed it right to me and my friend Steve and we looked it all over and it looks just like the pictures you see of Stan holding it on the internet except...

JR: So there was a Colorado news broadcast in which he was holding one, right?

DG: Right.

JR: That was during some kind of Tesla conference or something?

DG: Yeah, he's outside in front of a little four-door escort showing how to pull the plug out and put this thing in its place.

JR: But it wasn't

DG: actually installed on that escort, was it? No, no. He was just showing people you just pull the plug out and put this in there.

JR: So is there any evidence that this thing was ever installed on any vehicle?

DG: It was on the buggy. Yeah, they were... There's pictures of the buggy with the components installed on it. You can see the injectors and the hoses going to the water gate valves and the spark plug leads going back to the modified distributor. Yeah, when I seen the injector, the top of it looks like a spark plug. It looks like a small lawnmower spark plug on the top that a regular ignition coil wire would snap onto. The picture you see of them holding it in the newscast has a little white plastic cover onto where you can't see that stuff. But then there's a fitting that goes in the side for the water inlet and then the water, the gases eject out the very tip where the threads are where it screws into the cylinder.

JR: Okay, so what we have here then is an injector spark plug that has a water line going to the side of it. It has a standard ignition wire, what typically travels from the distributor to the spark plug, from the distributor cap to the spark plug. That wire connects in the normal fashion to the tip of the spark plug, the injector plug. Now, the energy that's passing through that wire is doing something very different, though, than a normal spark plug. It's actually, right,

DG: yeah, see, there is a VIC coil that goes in the system. It's his, you know, special made voltage intensifier circuit coil. It's a step-up transformer with the chokes and everything, the inductors all built into one unit. That would go and hook into the distributor cap and then you'd have the four leads coming out that went to each cylinder of the buggy, but there was the special VIC coil that fired that. And then inside the distributor was all the other components that were needed to make the whole system work. It has a, he calls it a laser accelerator system that's modified because it was a stock distributor with a unit on top of it and then the cap went on top of it, so it had, after his own electronics designs, incorporated into the factory distributor.

JR: (31:43) And that's included in the software to purchase all of his stuff.

DG: Oh, yeah, everything. But it's not installed

JR: on the dune buggy?

DG: No, it's, but everything that I know should be there, I've seen there. It's all there.

JR: Okay, so we're not saying that each coil wire, each ignition wire going to each spark plug has a voltage intensifier circuit on it. Instead, there's one central.

DG: Yeah, there's just one master coil, just like a normal car would have, but it's his own special high voltage, you know, amp restricting circuit. Now, how do you understand what's taking place inside that

JR: injector plug, then? The piston comes up for the compression stroke, is that when it goes into action, or is it when it goes into the engine stroke?

DG: Yeah, what it does is it doesn't actually fire the hydrogen or nothing. When the water passes through the voltage zones on the inside of that injector, it converts it instantly into the gases, and it self-ignites by the time it comes out the tip of that plug, so it's like a burner nozzle in a furnace. You put the water in, it just comes out as a flame at the end, and it's pulsed. The water is pulsed through the injector, just like a fuel injector on your car is. It's controlled by the computer that pulses each of those four solenoids on the car that injects the water into the injector, so it's an injection process, and it injects it right around top dead center, probably a little after top dead center, and it just explodes and forces the piston back down.

JR: So are we saying then that the four-cycle engine doesn't need to be a four-cycle engine for this type of fuel system?

DG: That I haven't really thought about.

JR: In other words, you don't have an intake stroke and a compression stroke, right?

DG: Well, you're still, yeah, you're still sucking in outside air. That air, there's also processed air that is entered into the system through the, there's an ambient air processor that injects processed air. He ionizes some air and sends it through the intake, and he also sends in some exhaust recirculation back into the intake. That's all to control the burn rate. When that fire comes out the end of that plug, it's pretty explosive, so he's putting in a lot of non-combustible gases along with some ionized air to enhance the burn, and it's a mix of three things at once.

JR: Okay, so you're taking in an atmospheric air mix along with some exhaust gases and some ionized air. Yes. You're taking that in during the intake stroke. You're compressing it during the compression stroke.

DG: Yes.

JR: But you're not trying to burn it. You're not igniting it. You're igniting the fuel that is being instantly, or simultaneously... Yeah, the water that's

DG: being converted is, it's an instant explosion as the water passes through the injector through the voltage zones. It does a conversion, and when it's ready, when it comes out the tip of that injector, it literally just comes out as a ball of fire, and then all those other gases in there enhances the burn and slows it down because the hydrogen, you know, of course, burns so fast that it's more of an explosion than a slow burn. So he's processing all the air that's being drawn in and compressed to reduce that flame speed. You see him in his video talking about adjusting the flame speed, that's what he was doing, of slowing down burn, because it'd be like hitting that piston with a sledgehammer every time it goes off without this other tree of gases in there.

JR: Okay. And so, is there any evidence that this was actually tested

DG: and substantiated by outsiders, or...? That I don't know. I've been talking with the owner, and he's got a whole bunch of VCR tapes that he's never watched, and he says, what you need to do is sit down and start watching some of these tapes, and he says, you need to find some video of that engine running with those water fuel injectors in it, where you can literally see the motor running, and those injectors are in the cylinders. I says, if you can find that, it says it's worth its weight in gold after that. Yeah.

JR: And you know what I wonder is why, if it's such an easy thing to do, to pop a video cassette into a VCR?

DG: Yeah. Yeah. Why wouldn't he do that? He's a busy man, I can tell you that. Yeah, but I don't think anyone is that busy, are they? I mean, there is just so much stuff there. I mean, people tend to kick

JR: their feet up and watch something if they come in and hire some work.

DG: Yeah, he said he's going to have to sit down and start watching some. He's a tough guy to get a hold of. Yeah, but you'd think that he would have had something to brag about, having watched those videos. Yeah, I think I've gotten convinced of doing that now. So he said, well, I'm going to have... He was sorting through some stuff here. Their power was out down in that area from the Hurricane Ike coming through. So he was out without power for like a week. So now it came back on. He was sorting through some stuff for paperwork and found some more things he was telling me about that I didn't see. And one of the units I didn't see when I was there was the actual voltage intensifier coil. And he called to let me know that he did find one. He goes, I found one of them boxes and the components are in it.

JR: (36:57) Huh, very interesting.

DG: That was the only part that I didn't get to see when I was there. I got to see the boxes that I put a picture on the web about of the VIC coil box, but there's nothing in it. Okay, so you have posted pictures of all these things where? The pictures, some of the pictures are on the waterfuelcell.org and the other ones on... And that's the Australian site? Yes. Yeah, that's Murray's site on the whole street. Murray Willis' site? Yes. Okay. And then the other place is the WFC Y2K Yahoo. Okay, this is a Yahoo chat group called W... WFC Water Fuel Cell Y2K. It's just six letters. Okay. Five letters of a number.

JR: So anyone who wants to become a member of that group can do so and have access to the files section.

DG: Yep. You don't have to be a member. There's nothing to sign on. Yeah, and then you can access the files and the photos and so on. Yeah, when I first let this be known that I found the stuff, the owner sent me a picture of the buggy. It's outside. You can see a little bit of snow on the ground. I posted that, and then he sent me the picture of the VIC coil box, a big aluminum box. I put that in there, and then he sent me a picture of the hydrogen gas gun, and I put that in there. So those three pictures are on both of those sites.

JR: So what do you understand the function of the hydrogen gas gun to be? What is it actually doing? What's the purpose?

DG: Yeah, okay. After you get the gases out of your actual water fuel cell, this has nothing to do with the injectors. It's almost like a rocket engine, basically. But what it does is as the gases come out of the cell, it passes through the hydrogen gas gun, which has all these LED lights on it, which he calls laser energy. He's hitting them with a specific light frequency from these LEDs. And all it's doing is, if you go through his patents, he explains that when the gases are separated, you still have the electrons orbiting the hydrogen molecules and the oxygen molecules. By hitting them with this light energy, it causes those electrons to go into a farther orbit from that molecule. What he's doing is he's making the gases very unstable, the molecules.

By moving these electrons into a farther orbit, you know, like taking the moon and swinging it out farther from Earth, it becomes very unstable. And then once you ignite the gases, everything's in chaos and all matter wants to find equilibrium and wants to return to equilibrium. So he's making it very unstable. So when that gas is lighted, now it becomes extremely more volatile, it just enhances the energy output of the gases if you were just to light it without doing this laser amplification.

JR: Very interesting. So when the conventional wisdom says you can't run a car on water because hydrogen has X number of BTUs of energy.

DG: Right.

JR: And Stan Meyer's saying, here's a way to enhance the energy that you can get out of

DG: it. Right. He was taking it right down to the molecule level of energy, you know, like the atom, like splitting the atom. You know, it doesn't, very little small atom, when you split the thing, you got the atomic bomb. He's doing the same thing, but on a smaller scale. You know, he's not going to that drastic stream. But there is a lot of energy in water and that's what he was doing. I think what happened was, like your friend said, he'd seen the thing run and it didn't run very good. Yes, he was probably just burning the straight gases and then he got into the ionizing the air or circulating exhaust gases, the laser amplification, and he was taking that energy potential and just making it greater and greater and greater until he finally had enough power to do what he wanted.

JR: Yeah. Well, it was obvious to me when you saw the first video that was on the Columbus TV station that they didn't have the science down. I mean, I asked Charlie Holbrook, what were you doing standing on the back of the dune buggy? And he said, I was feeding it the hydrogen. Yeah. Well, I mean, if they'd had their act together at all, he wouldn't have needed someone to be standing behind him on the back of the thing operating the fuel flow.

DG: Yeah, that's what I mean. If he had a lot of fuel in there, like I say, it only takes so much to make an engine idle and then it takes progressively more as you accelerate and then once you get to a neutral speed, a constant speed of 55 mile an hour, then the flow will actually drop again. So he's increasing and decreasing the flow to keep up with the engine because it hadn't had it.

JR: You know, what's amazing about that is that other people have mastered this using propane regulators and diaphragms and so on, propane carburetors. What's funny is that someone can be such a genius to come up with these concepts and then actually build a device that's capable of producing the gas, but that doesn't mean that they're a master of carburation.

DG: Sure. You know? Yeah. My background, I've been playing with drag racing cars for 20 plus years and I know fuel injection inside and out. I actually had a Dynojet chassis dyno where I would custom tune fuel injected cars and I'd go right into computers and program it and that's why I tell the owner, I says, you know, the easiest thing to do with that technology is to put it in a furnace first and it's the easiest thing to set up and then the next thing would be to do a genset where you've got an engine that's running at a constant speed. I says, once you throw in the variable throttle controls of an automobile engine, I says, you've just quadrupled the effort to make it run. I says, you started out with the hardest thing you could possibly do.

I mean, knowing what I know about tuning cars, I mean, there is a lot to go into setting up a program to make an engine run at all loads where you can go out on a cold day, start the car, take off. If you're familiar with driving old carbureted cars in the old days, you couldn't do that and that's kind of where he was at, you know, he had the gases but he just had to control it better. It's very complicated.

JR: (43:06) It is and so you can't expect someone to be adept at everything, you know, and you can't expect them to be a perfect marketer of their technology either. If you point to Meyer's paranoia or his failure to promote it successfully during his lifetime so that by the time he died unexpectedly, it wasn't able to be marketed, you know. No one could run with it and that's really a testimony to the fact that none of us has all the bases covered.

DG: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of knowledge needed to do what he was trying and then he, the owner says that he was like one of these guys where he'd get something, he'd get it working, he says, okay, now, and then he'd go off and work on something else. Oh, absolutely. Heading, air conditioning, he'd get something where it would work and then he would jump into something else without finishing what he started. So he was just constantly bouncing around trying to...

JR: Well, look at it this way. If the powers that be wanted to run with his technology at an early date, they could have.

DG: Right.

JR: He wasn't willing to, he was trying to get it marketed and yes, perhaps he wanted it done his way but I think that if a reasonable offer had been made by someone truly interested in putting it on their vehicles, one of the major automakers or whatever, or furnaces, for whatever reason, it has so many applications, he would have allowed it to have been mass produced and marketed by someone who had that sincere desire and manifested it to him. But I just don't think that ever happened.

DG: Yeah, I like in the videos I've bought and off of the waterfuelcell.org, he has some DVDs, the lectures he gives. He says, you know, this has to be made in a garage by an individual because as soon as you hire somebody to develop a part for you, he was afraid that someone could come in, do a corporate takeover of the place and then once that technology was designed and they built it and you needed to make your system work, you could no longer continue your work because they're the owner of the part now if they wanted to suppress it. So he was always paranoid that people were going to steal his work. So he had to do everything himself to protect it.

JR: Yeah, and you know, he had some bad experiences before he ever got into this alternative energy pursuit. And I know in one case, one of his supervisors was looking over his shoulder, stole one of his ideas and then marketed it and was the recipient of the benefits from that technology. I think it had to do with a dollar bill changer.

DG: Yeah.

JR: I can't remember the name of the company he was working for at the time. I'm sorry?

DG: I said that's probably where he got his paranoia from.

JR: Yeah, he had already been burned. Yeah, already been burned. You know, anybody who's a design genius who comes up with concepts and then finds that someone nearby has stolen them is going to make you twice shy.

DG: Yeah, I know. Well, there's a lot of people, you know, on these sites have been, you know, saying that I'm a fraud and this stuff's all a fraud. It's not real. And, you know, seeing the stuff firsthand, I can tell you for sure that this is Stan stuff. Everything you can see on it, there's nothing on that buggy that was high tech. I mean, everything you can tell was made. He made it himself. Everything was done just with, you know, hand-operated lathes and mills. It was, everything was made, you know, you can tell he made it personally. There was nothing store-bought on that machine at all. Everything was handmade just by the materials he used. But everything was there, everything that should be there that I, there was no, when I saw the stuff, there was, there was nothing on there that surprised me. There wasn't anything on there that I did not expect to see.

So, I was hoping to see some more stuff, but it was that simple. It was as simple as he showed in all his patents. It's, there was nothing hidden.

JR: And as far as a price, have you, any idea what the top dollar that's been offered for all the stuff is?

DG: Right now, it's still in the mid-$70,000 range. It really hasn't gone over. I mean, there was original offer on the table of $70,000 when I first brought it out, and there's only been two, maybe three people that have literally talked and made offers. But it's still only like mid-70s. They're still waiting for people to get back to them.

JR: Okay, and as far as contact information, if somebody does want to table an offer,

DG: Yeah, right now, they don't have to contact me, you know.

JR: What would your email address be?

DG: Dynodon, that's [the address he gave on air]. Okay.

JR: And is the seller laying down any kind of stipulation about not shelving the technology? Oh, yeah.

DG: He does not. He wants to see whoever gets this, he wants to see them to work at it, promote it, get it working if it works. And, you know, he wants to see this out there. He does not want to see it shelved. He says if an oil company came in and he knew they were from big oil and were offering them $10 million for the thing and somebody else was offering them a million dollars that he knows would do something with it, he would not sell it to, he's not going to sell it to the highest bidder without knowing what they're going to do with it. Yeah. On the same hand, he's not going to sell it without having some kind of percentage in any sales that come about getting this thing out there to the public either. You know, if he's going to make some money, he expects he can make the money on the selling end. Yeah.

JR: (48:24) Well, Meyer said that he was offered a billion dollars cash.

DG: The way Stan words it, he says over the years he's been offered over a billion. I think he might have added up all the offers together. But I don't think he was actually offered a billion up front. The way he says it in the videos, it almost sounds like, you know, they offered him millions, millions, millions, and it all added up to over a billion dollars. That's what I take from what he said.

JR: Very interesting. And yet, in the final analysis, he might as well have accepted the money because nothing's happened with it anyway.

DG: Right. Right. I mean, I was surprised.

JR: I mean, if it's not being... I'm sorry?

DG: I was surprised that after all these years that it was still around, I never expected to find the thing. When I did, it was like, wow, that's amazing. Because once I seen that report in the Columbus dispatch, it was like, it's still there. And I said, why isn't anybody looking for this thing?

JR: Well, the interesting thing...

DG: And he says that nobody's ever called or inquired or, you know, he's never heard anybody looking for it other than the people that knew where it was. And those were the people that he was negotiating with until the 16th of August.

JR: But there were a few people... Well, maybe things will change now that this program has called to the fact that it's available.

DG: Well, you know, people, you know, think that we're trying to fraud. And I said, no, I said, you know, you guys ought to be happy to find out the thing is still out there. You know, everyone thought the government came in and took it away. I mean, but that never happened. So I figured people would be, you know, happy to know that it's here. And then at the very least, when the thing's sold, I'm hoping the owner will let me know who gets it so we can keep an eye on it and make sure it doesn't disappear again.

JR: Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to find out that someone with both the funds necessary to acquire it and the desire to, you know, bring it to market?

DG: Yeah, so far all the people that... The people that have called me and the couple that I've sent on and the people that are also that he's talking with, I mean, they all have that hope to get the thing working and promote it. I mean, the Orion Project that most people know are one of the people that has an offer in. They posted some pictures on their website, the Orion Project. After I posted my pictures, they had pictures that they had taken earlier in the year when they went and saw it and then they posted their pictures of the stuff while they looked at it. Well, that's good to know. So I'm not the only person that knows where it is right now. I mean, there's at least a half a dozen people I know that know where it is and who has it. So I'm not the only person to know.

JR: Well, and there are developments all over the world happening right now and some of it is based on Myers' work, which, you know, validates the work that he did. The fact that, you know, as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. There are people all over the world that are claiming to have replicated certain aspects of his technology. And so that's promising.

DG: Yeah, I've read of two people who have claimed to have done it. There was a Ted Zettergren from France who claimed to have been the first one to have done it. And then there was another fellow over here in the States called Tad Johnson who claims to have done it. But he said it was such a hard thing to maintain the resonance. Once he said it took a long time to find it and then it'd run for a little bit and then it would quit because something would change. It was so temperamental that you could not stay on lock. And he was just doing manual adjusting. But he claims to have done it. He was on the WFC Y2K group when it first started a few years ago.

JR: Now, what about your own work? What are you doing? You're doing experiments?

DG: Pretty much like everybody, I started out with the Lawton circuit and played with that. And then the more I read Stan's work, Stan emphasizes a 50% duty cycle. And the Lawton circuit will not maintain 50% when you adjust frequency. So I've been playing with circuits that only generate a clean 50% duty cycle. And, I mean, it works. It's just a matter of attenuating the voltage. It's just a matter of getting that VIC coil to get the voltage to the south. So right now I'm in the middle of a new generator and trying to get the bugs worked out of it. But it's just a little tinkering every now and then when I get the time.

JR: Well, it's good to hear that you're a hands-on kind of guy and you're working on it.

DG: Yeah, I'm not just looking. I've been playing. Like I said, I've been at this for a couple of years. I've played with some of Bob Boyce's stuff. And I've done some of that. I've got an alternator all converted ready to test on a multi-tube cell. Well, it's good to hear it, Don.

JR: Why don't we do a follow-up interview after we allow some time for things to transpire. And perhaps we can talk to you also about your experience in getting into the computer and actually reprogramming. That's very helpful.

DG: Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a ton of – I was a dealer for SCT, which was Super Chips Custom Tuning, where I would buy the chips and burn them and put them in the computers. And then I also would sell the units that I could program and sell them to customers, and they could literally go in and do the timing and fuel changes themselves, correct for tire gear ratios. There's a lot of companies out there now. If you can't find one for your car, you're not looking. I mean, everything out there.

JR: (53:38) And so what people want to know is how they can get a hydrogen booster to perform better or to achieve.

DG: I'll tell you what. When you're talking OBD-2, 96 and newer, you've got your hands full. And the problem with boosters is the flow coming out of it is constant. It doesn't vary. If you've got a booster that makes 1 1⁄2 liters a minute, you've got a 1 1⁄2 liters a minute when it's idling. You've got a 1 1⁄2 liters a minute when it's full throttle. So you've got a real problem there of trying to maintain a good air-fuel ratio.

JR: Well, that's where an Australian has just this week suggested making a Venturi. Now, I know Zero Fossil Fuel also posted such a, not made out of plastic wine glasses, but he posted one made out of PVC pipe sometime earlier this year, or maybe last year it was, actually, where there's a small gas feed tube in the midst of this pipe that is, I guess you'd say beveled so it's Venturi-shaped. Like a Venturi effect? Yes.

DG: And so that's something to watch. What I was looking to do, I built a, you know, a SMAC booster and played with it on my car just to see what the oxygen sensors would do. But I have a Mustang with a 347 supercharged, you know, 800-horse car, and I hooked it on there, just let it idle to watch the oxygen sensor outputs. A mine puts out maybe 1.2 liters a minute, but it didn't have enough gas to affect the readings. But if you get into a force zone in a car, then that's when you're going to start seeing it show up in your oxygen sensors. I mean, you've got to be able to get around that. The best thing you could do was, like on these late modern day cars, they all have mass air meters.

What you would really need to do is tie into that mass air meter and control the voltage or the power going to the cell and have that cell increase and decrease as air flow increases and decreases into your engine. That's about the only way you could really do it right.

JR: Well, and what this Australian, Lyle Bailey is his name, he's actually a model airplane builder. This is what he's done as a career. He's an older fellow, I guess, maybe 60, 70 years old.

DG: Yep, I've been there. I'm actually building a home-built experimental aircraft myself.

JR: Well, you might want to communicate with him then. Absolutely. He's on one or two of the groups. But the point being that the meditation that resulted in this idea was that if a vehicle can climb to high altitude, and unlike the old carbureted vehicles that would slow down and even die while crossing the Rockies, for example, a newer vehicle is capable of adjusting down the fuel injection based on the restricted oxygen.

DG: Yeah, it's all based on your barometric pressure readings. As you go higher in altitude, the air gets leaner and leaner in the oxygen content. So what happens is your engine gets richer and richer and richer. I'm also a private pilot, so I fly airplanes as well. So as you go up in altitude, there's a mixture control on an airplane, you pull it to lean the carburetor out because they're carbureted. So as you go up in altitude, you have to lean out the mixture. And with carburetors, they'd float out, but fuel injection automatically compensates for the conditions because of the barometric pressure sensor. It automatically reads the pressure and compensates for it.

JR: Yeah, very, very interesting. So the idea that was arrived at is that if the vehicle is able to detect that change in pressure or oxygen level, then why not restrict the airflow into the engine using this Venturi so that the resulting combustion reflects that lower oxygen content?

DG: Well, what you're talking about, if you're getting up in altitude, the air is already being restricted, and that's the problem. You're getting too much fuel. You need to pull fuel out to compensate for the lower airflow.

JR: Which the vehicle does, right? So on the newer vehicles, there is a restricted fuel flow under this circumstance, right?

DG: Yeah, the computer has a sensor that monitors atmospheric outside air pressure, and as you go up in altitude, the pressure readings go lower and lower, so the computer automatically compensates and pulls back the fuel. Where exactly is that sensor, the barometric pressure sensor?

JR: Is that inside the air intake plenum?

DG: Well, a lot of the newer computers, it depends on foreign domestic, some of them are in the actual computer now. Some of them used to be a sensor. When they were hooked to the engine, they used to be called a MAP sensor, manifold absolute pressure, and that was before mass air came along. So then once mass air came, that MAP sensor now was turned into a BAP sensor, B-A-P, barometric absolute pressure. But a lot of them are now internal in the computer, so just a little chip on the board that can register pressure automatically in the computer. So that would be an easy way to deal with this situation, wouldn't it? It helps. I mean, the computers, car computers are only programmed to work around lambda of 1.0, which is your 14.7 to 1 air fuel ratio. And the biggest hurdle we have is to, you can literally go in and reprogram the car, the computer, to run at a different air fuel ratio.

But the problem is you need a different type of oxygen sensor. A lot of the newer cars use a wideband oxygen sensor, which would allow you to change that air fuel ratio. The standard O2 sensors, which are narrowband, you can't go richer or leaner than that 14.7 to 1 by very much. Once you go left or right of 14.7 on the ratio table, the oxygen sensor is not accurate. It was only designed to operate at one ratio. When a computer sees the voltage which is higher than 0.45 volts, it knows it's rich. If it sees it's lower than 0.45, it knows it's lean. So the computer just looks richly and richly. Whereas a wideband sensor, it can literally tell the computer what the air fuel ratio is. So if you can reprogram, reflash the computer with a new air fuel ratio, it'll hold that ratio for you.

JR: (1:00:03) And you're capable of doing that?

DG: Yeah, with certain models. I don't have software to do them all anymore. I've gotten out of it now, so I'm not doing it anymore. I just got tired of it.

JR: But this shows the complications of it because not all vehicles respond the same. You have to have the software for individual vehicles.

DG: Yeah, every manufacturer has a different program. They all have the same basic systems. There's three programs in a computer. You've got idle, part throttle, and wide open throttle. There's three modes of operability. And when you start your car, you're in the idle mode. When you start driving, you go to part throttle. And then after maybe 60%, 70% throttle, you get into wide open throttle. And each one of those, you can go in and program any one of them, and it will not affect the other two. But there's a ton of programming in there, and you've really got to understand this stuff to do it. Not anybody can do it. So when you buy these flash tuners you can order from Summit Racing or anybody like that, they give you very minimal things that you can adjust.

But it allows you, if you change your rear-end gears or put bigger tires or smaller tires on it, that's going to throw your speedometer off because it's all controlled by the computer now. They allow you to correct all that stuff. If you go put bigger injectors in, bigger mass air meter, better flowing heads, camshafts, they give you some areas where you can adjust. But if you need a real serious change where you've taken a four-cylinder and went from a 100-horse to a 300-horse motor, that's going to take a total reconfiguration of the program to make it work.

JR: And you were the guy to have to do that?

DG: Yeah, I used to do that. My little 302 Mustang is 800 horsepower.

JR: Yeah. Well, our 15-minute interview has stretched to an hour, so I'd say there's room for us to do another interview in the next few weeks and see what's happened with Myers-Dunebug and also consider some of these other important aspects of boosting a gasoline engine and so on.

DG: Yeah, boosting is not bad. I mean, you've just got to have an understanding of the computer to really make it work right.

JR: Well, we're looking for a simple fix that's across the board for all vehicles.

DG: No, there just isn't one. That's the biggest thing. There isn't one. I mean, like I say, the newer computers with the wideband sensors, you have a better chance of doing it. But the older systems that have what they call narrow bands, which 90% of the cars have, it's going to be a real problem to get around.

JR: Okay, well, listen, Don, thanks so much. We might just mention your email address again. It's dyno, Don?

DG: [the address again].

JR: Okay, very good. And I'll go ahead and post that on the Blog Talk radio page as well.

DG: I'm on that WSCY2K Yahoo group and the waterfuelcell.org. I mean, you can get me through both of those. I've gotten out a bunch of the other ones.

JR: Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm sure this has been very informative for our listening audience. I appreciate it, and I thank everyone for tuning in as well.

DG: Okay, thank you, James. All right, take care. Bye. Bye.