BobZilla

Hi George,

This may not be what you want to hear but the problem you have with your batteries is not the chemical. Your plates are sulphated and changing the chemical will not help, you need to desulphte them by whatever method you prefer.

I thought I would show a picture of the inside on one of them. This battery was left outside all winter and busted from the freezing but you can see the plates and separators. This is a small 12v 5AH...

First off you are correct in thinking that you should use wet cells that you can fill.

Be aware however that even with a radiant charge there will be bubbling, you said in the video that you did not expect that to happen but it will. You should remove those caps on your wet cells too..

Question about that wall charger you showed for your primary charger. What voltage and current does that output? From the video it looked like it was way over powered for those batteries.

Your last message indicated that you figured out that you can fill the SLAB but too make sure I will describe how you can do that..

Take a very small screwdriver and carefully pry around the top cover and it will pop off. Under that cover you will find small rubber caps. Remove those but first do you notice that they are under a vacuum pressure, meaning sucked inward, when you remove the cap does it suck in air? If it does than that is a good indication that you dried them out and over discharged.

Take the rubber caps off and put about 8-10 drops of distilled water in each hole. Do not fill all the way. There are porous separators between the plates that you want to moisten but not flood. Let the water soak in for an hour.

If you charge these on your wheel there is a good chance you can bring them back to life. You may have a cell reversal which you can correct sometimes. Charge it up and discharge it several times and you may see improvement. It is worth a try since they are junked now anyway.

If you can get them working again then only charge them to 14.8v in the future. The main problem with sealed cells is that you will convert the electrolyte to hydrogen and they will dry out. If you put a few drops of water in them every once and awhile you can counter act this process but it is not an ideal situation. You are better off with the other wet cells.

Keep at it and hopefully they will come back.

The main thing is to cycle them anyway regardless of the fancier technique's I would start with a light load at first like whatever the c20 rate is, do half that. Long slow discharges will help.

I have some big AGM's that are similar, 100AH from PowerSonic. Those look like telecommunication rack batteries and they are well worth the trouble if you can get them working decent. They will run inverters fantastic.

Yea,, That is why everyone agrees that flooded batteries are the best for the type of projects we work on. GEL/AGM are too finicky. Gels are even stranger than AGM in that regard.

Just give me a battery that I can simply add more water if I need too and be done with it ;-)

Cannot comment on the chargers. Just to make sure you follow me don't push those things up past 14.8 on a regular basis if you decide to do it at all. It will mess them up. I was more suggesting you do it a few cycles is all.

Especially with GEL cells it can be beneficial to bubble them only once and awhile. The reason I say that is because the "GEL" is thick inside there and when you do partial charging from a normal charger you will develop tiny air pockets in the gel from where it starts to bubble occasionally. These can create tiny little voids at the plate surface area where the actual electrolyte is not touching the plate because of the air pocket. When you bring the voltage up it will liquify the gel and let the trapped bubbles escape the plate surface and recombine. Of course if you do it too much you will just boil out the electrolyte.

Ever made cookie dough or seen it being made. You know how you slap the tray down on the counter a few times to get the bubbles out, kind of like that.

I guess we disagree John but I said only a few times or they will dry out.

We went over all of the nuances earlier in the post. If they have been sitting for years than they are sure to have a good build up on them that will need to be cleared or he will never get capacity back out of them.

Dominus,
If they have been sitting a long time you do want to push them up to 15 at least a few times to help clean the plates. One suggestion would be to charge them at your normal rate but when they get up to 13.5 or so increase your power a bit to drive them faster don't worry about your efficiency on the primary, you are just trying to condition them without gassing off to much. That should minimize the gassing period a bit by bringing them up faster. Just don't do it too much or you will dry them out as previously discussed.

Hi Yoder,
I will just offer my 2 cents here, maybe others will chime in.

Alum batteries are best for storage batteries, not starters. They can hold a steady load for a long time and actually adjust to the load. The hissing sound I would guess is hydrogen and oxygen gassing off because your alternator is charging the heck out of it when you have the engine running. If you put a charger on it does it start bubbling up around 13v or so? If it does than it is probably like I said and it is getting held at a fully charged state the whole time your engine is running which causes the gassing.

Also by nature the alum battery stands at a lower voltage so the 9.97 sounds reasonable. It should be a bit higher than that but perhaps something is going on with the constant over charging from the alternator. Ambient temperature is also going to play a role is how it operates, is it cold outside where you are?

I would suggest you get a normal battery and keep it in the trunk or something so you can jump start if you get into trouble. Also please be careful, if I am right about the gassing it is highly explosive. There is a potential there for blowing the thing up when you connect jumpers. The more I think about it I really suggest you not run that alum battery until you figure out whats going on.

NoFear,
Yes I know what you mean about those that suck in air as well. The AGM is actually designed in a way that does involve internal pressure. Under normal operation it will "suck in" when discharging and expand out when charging. They are supposed to vent off if that pressure gets to large but what I was referring to is sometimes they do not vent out and start to bulge. The pressure keeps the mat evenly distributed with electrolyte but what we are doing when we open them up and add water is a whole different beast from how they are designed to work. As I suggested to the OP you can just put a few drops of water periodically on the mat but it becomes a balancing act. This is one reason Mr. Bedini has always said to use FLOODED batteries. He knows that AGMs can be used but they are such a pain in the arse it is almost not worth it (unless you get them free).

Good flooded batteries are getting harder and harder to find. There are plenty of starter batteries for cars but not storage batteries. With the advent of the internet and on-line purchasing most battery places push the AGM and GEL cells because they can SHIP them without restrictions, hence that is what is turning up everywhere. Also as is the case of UPS they are desirable because they cannot spill out, "maintenance free" what a scam! Sure they are maintenance free because you buy them , use them,toss them, and but more of them.

Hi NoFear,
Yes I agree with you. Especially in AGM's. The plates are really thin on most of them so any kind of warping will almost surely damage them beyond fixing. I do not even bother with one that shows bulging. I have noticed that on some of them at least that the bulging seems to come from improper venting. They are all supposed to have a one way vent for over charging but some that I have seen will gas out when I open them , as if it is under high pressure. Regardless of the cause, if it is bulging it is not worth messing with.

One trick for getting good salvage batteries is to try and get the data center UPS ones like I get. I am not talking about a homeowner style UPS that has just one or two batteries, these are trays of 5AH connected in parallel and series banks to make 48V. What usually happens is ONE of them malfunctions so the sensor on the UPS alerts that the batteries need replacing. Because they are all hooked up in a single bank the sensor is not smart enough to know the real problem, only that it is not getting the proper voltage. So what happens is the technician replaces the whole tray. There are 8 to a tray and usually one has gone bad. The rest can be brought back to life. They do get sulphate simply because the technician takes the whole tray out and it sits there slowly discharging on a shelf somewhere until I get it.

They are old batteries obviously because at least one has already failed and since they are intended for backup power the technician really has to replace the whole tray for reliability but many of them still have a lot of life in them.

Thanks Faraday, Just trying to share what has worked for me.

Something I didn't really mention in the last post that I should. At that initial phase when you are only hitting it for five minutes or so the voltage is going to look insane if you have a meter on the battery. The reason is that it is almost a dead short to the circuit. Again that is why I use the lower powered single transistor setup on very low power. If I dial the pot to high i WILL see the neon light up, so I run it very low. The idea is to keep it under 70 volts or so; otherwise the neon will light and burn off the power instead of it smacking the battery with it.

Just monitor things closely for heat. The transistor or the coil can heat up quite quickly if you are trying to throw to much power at it. Usually when I first start the meter will be around 65V or so and it will jump up and down a lot. This is expected as the plates are starting to barely accept the charge on tiny little sections. By the time you get it to where the load actually shows a little glow on the bulb the meter will be down closer to 20V or so. Basically what is happening is your machine is producing more energy than the battery can accept until it cleans its plates a bit.

Watching this high voltage freaked me out the first few times I did it but if you keep an eye on things and don't push on it for very long it works out fine.

Even when it starts behaving pretty well and you are hitting it with a dumper (or just radiant) for longer runs the voltages will spike and drop very abnormally. This is all part of the plates cleaning up. Eventually if you have a good salvage battery it will clear up and look like a normal charge curve.



@ALL
Remember I am describing a procedure for SALVAGE batteries. This stuff is not necessary on batteries that are already accepting charge. I have a bunch of 5AH AGM batteries that came out of UPS systems for computer data center racks ( I get them Free when they are replaced) . That is what I have brought back from the grave over and over doing this. It takes a lot of time and effort so it is not for everyone. It is always best to use NEW FLOODED batteries but If you can get something for free as I can than it is worth fooling with.

Yes I guess I wasn't clear about the C20, but that is on the discharge. Charging we can set many different rates and that is mostly the challenge with these systems, finding what works best AND most efficient.

Here is what I do in basic terms to salvage an otherwise useless AGM battery.

First I add distilled water to each cell, not full up but enough to make sure the glass mat is not bone dry. Typically the battery is sitting around 6 volts on it's own at this point but sometimes even lower. It has been sitting there for who knows how long killing itself by self discharge.

Now after it has been at least partially hydrated and has had time to soak it up I will apply a load to it, very small load like a small automotive bulb. I will have a voltmeter on it and literally as soon as I apply the load it will drop to Zero.

Now I have a small solid state coil I built with only one transistor and small wire 22AWG 75 feet on the power coil. I use this little coil to get things started, I also charge all of my small meter batteries and flashlight batteries with this thing but that's not the point in this post. I use this little guy because it has a relatively small power output. You may be able to achieve the same by just running your machine really low.

I will charge for about 5 min, and then drain it with the load again. You will hardly see anything happening the first 20 times or so that you do this. Eventually when you connect the load you will see that it is starting to produce some real amperage, the filament glows slightly and the voltage under load may show like 1v or so. This part of the procedure is just to sort of wake up the battery. It's the push/pull that starts to clear a little plate area.

Once it is starting to accept the charge and drain it off I increase the power and do a few runs still with the small coil. This is all done with regular radiant output ( no cap or conversion).

At some point it gets to where it is really starting to behave as a battery again. Then I splash a little acid in each cell and top them off with more water. For a really small 5AH AGM I would say about 2ml of acid per cell (Diluted already) the kind you get with new batteries to fill.

Now I take it to my bigger machine and start hitting it with a cap dumper. At first I have found it to be best to hit it with large pulses, what I mean is let the cap build up in voltage before dumping so that when it does you get a nice 4-6 amp pulse. The large pulse helps shake the plates clean. After more runs like this I will adjust the dump to be less powerful but more frequent. So for example I will start out with one dump per 2 seconds at 35-40 volts which hits the battery with 5A, then I will switch up to something like 1 pulse per second at 24 volts at 2A pulse. From then on it is just a matter of doing more cycles over and over.

Now with all of that said, you do not NEED to have a cap dumper to work on the batteries. That is just how I am doing it lately. I used not fool with cap dumpers at all and the same procedures with just straight radiant machine will work so don't be discouraged from trying if you do not have a dumper.

Not all batteries will come back, some of them will have a stubborn cell that is shorted out but you cannot know until you go through the cycles and observe the behavior.

Anyway I hope that helps ---Bob

It sounds like you have a small AGM battery. Do not fill it with water, just a few drops once and awhile. These type are designed to hold the electrolyte within the separators. They are used in situation where the battery must be oriented sideways such as PC UPS systems, nothing to spill out.

They can be flooded but I don't recommend doing that until you have a good understanding of how they work. I flood them and add a little acid to make up for the dilution but it is a fine balance between too weak or too strong so for now just add a few drops of distilled water to replenish it and run it as it was designed to run.

They are not ideal for Bedini technology but you can play with it and learn from it for sure. The main reason they are not good for this project is because we are trying to push the battery to 15+ volts and this WILL start an electrolysis reaction (gassing). The original charging systems for AGM batteries never let it get past about 14.5V which keeps it from gassing, the gas is the water converting to hydrogen and oxygen which drys the cells. Also just be aware that this gas is highly flammable so be careful, especially connecting and disconnecting your leads. A little spark could ignite the vapor and believe me it's very powerful, like an M80 firecracker.

You do not want to pull more than .25A from it and that would be a bit much really. If you can find a 2 watt light bulb that would be just about right. You could use an 80mm PC cooling fan as the load also.

Do not drain you battery down like that, you are going to kill it very quickly!

What type of battery are you using? How many AH is it?

Generally speaking just drain it to 12v with a load that is the correct size for your battery. If you are not sure than a slower discharge with a lower load is going to be best. Follow the manufacture C20 rate.

When you charge back up you want to bring it to about 15.25v if it will go there. It may not at first. Most important is to watch it charge and it will rise slowly at first and towards the end it will top off quickly. On a normal battery the sharp increase will begin at around 13.5v and rise rapidly to 15v. Your battery may not behave this way but what you are looking for is that sharp rise and if it starts to fall back after that it is done.

Just repeat that cycle over and over but give it a rest between loads and charges or you will damage the plates. As you go through the process you will start to notice that it takes a little longer to charge each time, it may get to a higher voltage and it will run a load a little longer. Just keep doing it and you will start to see improvement.

Hi Lonewolf,
Without knowing how you have done your batteries I can only give you a general answer about the gassing. If you have wet cells then yes you should be cautious with them. Do you see it bubble when it reaches a full charge? Usually while still on charging and the voltage is up around 14.5 volts or so you will see tiny bubbles. The danger is not so much that it is a toxic gas but rather that it is highly flammable. It is actually what is known as Browns gas and it is a mix of hydrogen and oxygen. This is happening through electrolysis of the water. The reason it is such a concern is that many people will have a battery box enclosure like in an RV or a small closet in a cabin, whatever the situation but it is an enclosed space. The gas will build up to a dangerous level and the slightest spark can set it off. Static electricity or especially if you use cables with clips, you go to disconnect or connect a clip and get the slightest spark,, BOOM. SO BE CAREFUL. If you are not in a confined space it is less of a concern but still use caution.

I cannot speak on the epsom salts, I have not used them.

Hi Jeffrey,

The main thing you are doing is removing sulphate buildup on the plates. There is another process in play which changes the electrolyte but the main thing is the sulphate. Over time a battery will build up a layer on the plates which will decrease the capacity of the battery. As the usable plate surface area decreases because of the build up it looses it's capacity. This is a normal effect of the battery discharging. When you condition the battery with Bedini tech you are hitting the plates with high voltage impulses which dissolves the buildup and reverses it to become acid again which mixes back into the electrolyte. The result is that you return the plate surface area to it's original state, gaining capacity.

You want to charge and discharge the battery many times over. Generally speaking you will start to see noticeable changes after about 10 cycles. Never discharge the battery at a rate higher that it's C20 rate and never below 12V, better to keep around 12.2 or so. Try to get a data sheet for your batteries but a guess for the size batteries you are working with is not to exceed about 1/4 amp.

Depending on the condition of the battery you may not get it to charge all the way up to 15V at first. Watch the voltage and if it climbs rapidly and the starts to drop back, it is done. You may only get 13.5, 14, whatever, just watch for the signs that it is done. As you get it conditioned it will eventually start to go all the way to 15V. Make sure you do not dry the cells out. The process will produce hydrogen gas by converting the water through electrolysis. You must maintain the water as you loose it to off-gassing. Flooded batteries are easier to work with in this respect but I regularly work with AGM batteries, once and awhile I put an eye dropper full of water in each cell to replenish.

Absolutely! Not all used batteries can be recovered though. If it has physical damage such as bad connections internally or warped plates you can not recover it. The majority of what you will find can be recovered if you work with the battery. Make sure it has water and don't expect it to work like new on the second charge. It takes many cycles but you can restore them to like new performance. I have restored some that would run down flat in just 5 minutes when I started. Once you cycle at least ten times you will notice the run time will improve, just keep at it and it will become like new.

Good luck----Bob

I smell Trolls

What I like about Tom Bearden is that he is so damm smart but speaks like an everyday man. I need to get his book but I have seen him in the vacuum videos.

@ Tom c
Really makes me think about what we are all doing here ;-)

Oh wait' ,,,,I recant any success I have ever had and shared, It's a shame... I don't want to die... Lol


No I don't mean to make light of what you spoke on, it is true many men have died and many more broken. I hope that with the web and word of mouth we can free the world. Mr Bedini is our Mr Tesla of today and Mr. Bearden is,, well who knows,,, but I am thankful that they share with us.